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Old 8 Aug 2006, 21:35 (Ref:1677941)   #1
Garrett
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What Happened to GT1?

After looking at the GT1 grid for Road America, there are only 4 cars running: two Corvette C6Rs and two Aston Martin DBR9s. I know the GT1 grid is smaller due to Road America not being a major race and that more GT1 cars may show up for Petit Le Mans and Laguna Seca, but how much longer will these grids be this small for an entire ALMS season??

It is nice to watch two factory GT1 teams duke it out... but it would be better if there were 3, 4, or even 5 major GT1 teams running. Will the GT1 grids get stronger in the future or is this the beginning of the end for them??

What is the future of Aston Martin in GT1? Will they campaign factory DBR9s in the ALMS for 2007 or leave it up to some privateers?

How much longer will GM support the C6R program?

What other manufactures/teams will join the GT1 class?

Not too long ago every one was saying that the future of LM/ALMS/LMES would fall into the likes of GT1 cars. At this point, that seems to be very bleak.

Anyone have any ideas of what may happen to GT1?
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Old 8 Aug 2006, 21:59 (Ref:1677964)   #2
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jhansen should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridjhansen should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridjhansen should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
Why pay the high costs of running a GT1 car when it only equates to a class win? GT2 and LMP2 can be run for less and that still nets you a class win. And heck, if you're spending as much as Dyson, why not just make the jump to LM1? Couple that with stiff competition like Pratt & Miller and Prodrive in the ALMS and it's a daunting task. Although the LMS only had six GT1 cars at the Nurburgring.

At least in FIA GT a GT1 team is running for overall honors. They still get a decent grid of about 10 GT1 cars give or take.

Last edited by jhansen; 8 Aug 2006 at 22:03.
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Old 8 Aug 2006, 23:31 (Ref:1678001)   #3
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JAG should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridJAG should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridJAG should be qualifying in the top 3 on the grid
The FIA are apparently talking to teams about reducing costs.

Wonder if this is simply related testing etc. or changes to technical regs.

Personally I'd replace GT2 with GT3, and replace GT1 with GT2.

'GT2' could have bigger restrictors with '550bhp', larger 14in tyres, carbon brakes, GT1 spec rear wing, plus maybe weight reduced to 1000-1050kg.

Quick, spectacular and far more cost effective than the hyper expensive cars we currently see in GT1.

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Old 9 Aug 2006, 02:35 (Ref:1678061)   #4
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GT-Eins should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridGT-Eins should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
We recently had a discussion about the same topic in our forum - although focussed on the FIA-GT there are some common points
- the costs of the machinery have reached a limit where also in the past the number of teams able to compete are very limited. If your budget for a competetive new car is exceeding 1 Mio Euro the number of teams able to spend this sums shrinks dramatically (this also is valid for LMP-cars)
- at this sums wealthy collectors, interested in racing-historys of such cars are needed as partners, but this only applies for certain makes - donĀ“t know that much Saleen-collectors, compared to Ferrari- Maserati- or Lamborghini-collectors.
- additionally in the US there is not that "Sportscar & GT-culture" (how I would call that) than in Europe - tube-frame-spec-racers are (from my impression) the preferred machinery for the sport.
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Old 9 Aug 2006, 03:42 (Ref:1678072)   #5
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As of right now, I am certainly happy with the pair of C6Rs and DBR9s than to not even have any GT1 racers.

I am sure that GM will continue the C6R program for at least two or three more years... if not longer. Though, there were some rumors that GM may pull the GT1 plug and move to P2 or P1???

Whats the story with Aston Martin? Will the factory DBR9s race in the ALMS for 2007? Hopefully cause I love the DBR9s... and being that I rooted against the Vettes when the Oreca Vipers were around... I have adopted the DBR9s as my GT1 favorites.
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Old 9 Aug 2006, 11:34 (Ref:1678318)   #6
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AU N EGL should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridAU N EGL should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
1 million Euros or Dollars is ONLY the price of ONE GT1 car. Used C5Rs and C6.r ( if Pratt & Miller and GM will allowed them to be sold ) sell for between $500,000 for a used C5-R and $750,000 for a used C6.R.

Mich tire contracts run a Million dollars a year for a team of two cars. Winning Engine development, mantaince pacakges runs close to a Million dollars a year.

Teams need two cars plus the budget to race for several years. Not one year at a time.

Lemans the race itself is not inexpensive either. An American GT2 team Krohn / White Lighting partned team for Lemans had a budget of $960,000 just for the 24 hour Le Mans race. This did not include the drivers saleries. Krohn / White Lighting team did not finish the race.

Racing on the cheap is called Grand AM.

the American Speed World Challange GT team can be run for about one million dollars per year plus $300,000 for the car.

So . . .

If you want to play with the Big Boys, you have to pay . . . .
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Old 9 Aug 2006, 13:13 (Ref:1678406)   #7
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TheNewBob should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridTheNewBob should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
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Originally Posted by JAG
The FIA are apparently talking to teams about reducing costs.

Wonder if this is simply related testing etc. or changes to technical regs.

Personally I'd replace GT2 with GT3, and replace GT1 with GT2.

'GT2' could have bigger restrictors with '550bhp', larger 14in tyres, carbon brakes, GT1 spec rear wing, plus maybe weight reduced to 1000-1050kg.

Quick, spectacular and far more cost effective than the hyper expensive cars we currently see in GT1.
Well, the ACO would smile since it would put the cars back towards 3:55!

But there's more of a spectacle around GT1 than there is for GT2. The likes of the DBR9, C6.R, MC12, S7-R and Murcielago's are really great to watch around a track, and that's without yet mentioning those glorious noises.

But hopefully if GT2 was given the rule changes as you say then it might make current cars more spectacular and tempt more cars into the fray. As it stands now, I'm not much of a fan of GT2. The Panoz and Spykers are alright, but the Ferrari 430 is very dull, and I'm not a Porsche fan.

There are many ways of looking at it, but from a spectator point of view if GT1 was to disappear then FIA GT would really suffer. Other series get away with it because of the LMP's.

I am only talking from the spectator's point of view, though.
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Old 9 Aug 2006, 15:32 (Ref:1678491)   #8
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The Spa 24 Hours was in my opinion what GT1 racing should look like. While there are still issues with escalating costs even within the FIA GT, it certainly is a much better thing for the sport than watching the mega budget mustard racs run amok in the ALMS. The FIA series shows that the C6.R, while a fabulous race car, is not really a dominant force without mega bucks (and a team like P&M) behind it. With the same resources, any car would be doing the same...

as for turning GT2 into GT1, and GT3 into GT2, sounds like the GT1/GT2/GTS/GT scenario all over again! Hence why Porsche's "GT2" car is called the "GT3"

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Old 9 Aug 2006, 17:12 (Ref:1678547)   #9
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JAG should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridJAG should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridJAG should be qualifying in the top 3 on the grid
FIA GT, GT1 numbers are dwindling, even at Spa.

Current GT1 cars are over engineered, they are easily capable of sub 3.55, yet constantly pegged back.

Why not bring the more stock like 'GT2' cars into GT1, give them more power, carbon brakes etc. They'd run under 4.00m with room to grow.

The GT1 cars are slowly morphing into heavy, ponderous NASCAR like machines, I'd much prefer to see lightweight, 550BHP 997's, 430's and M3's battling away.

Porsche need to be in GT1 (with a 997 based car), costs should be brought down, while cars need room to grow and develop.
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Old 9 Aug 2006, 18:11 (Ref:1678590)   #10
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dj choc ice should be qualifying in the top 10 on the griddj choc ice should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
well JAG the thing of the porsche in GT1 sounds a bit like the A-level racing porsche turbo from last year actually i loked the A level turbo porsche in GT1 a lot it looked very nice out on the track but looked a trifle compared to the ferrari 550's and the aston martin DBR9's i do agree on the thing that the GT1 cars are being pegged back all the time i think if they ran with no weight penalties or smaller and smaller restrictors then they would be at least say 3 seconds faster a lap i mean look at the maseratis they make less than 600 bhp which for a GT1 is outrageous and is almost sacrilege
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Old 9 Aug 2006, 19:27 (Ref:1678648)   #11
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JAG should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridJAG should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridJAG should be qualifying in the top 3 on the grid
If you look at the new 997 GT3, with the wide 14 in tyres, it wouldn't take much to push it ahead of the back marking GT1 cars, 1050kg, 550bhp, carbon brakes.

A lightweight flyer.
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Old 9 Aug 2006, 20:13 (Ref:1678691)   #12
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One main question not answered yet that I have been wondering about is the fact of Aston Martin running factory DBR9s for the 2007 ALMS season? Will the high cost of running top level GT1 cars have Aston Martin/Prodrive leave or will they stay for another year or more?
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Old 9 Aug 2006, 20:50 (Ref:1678716)   #13
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JAG should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridJAG should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridJAG should be qualifying in the top 3 on the grid
IF they have customers, which they hope to, probably not.
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Old 9 Aug 2006, 20:55 (Ref:1678719)   #14
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JAG, the minimum GT1/2 weight is 1100kg, with 25kg, I believe, on that for the AC. That's still lighter than any serious road car here, except the Mazda Miata.

As to 'penalties", if you have modification rules based on production volume, the rules themselves WILL be automatically skewed in favor of the Corvette in this category. The C6/Z06 has the performance of a Ferrari 550/575, with a price tag that is lower than a 911 or Viper, and a production volume that dwarves all three. It blows the normal concept of performance for money out the window.

And changing the rules as you guys suggest is only a quick fix. The lower costs will last as long as performance gains cost less than they do now (the closer you get to a car's potential, the harder it is to make improvements), and even that will be blown sky-high if a factory, like GM, comes in and can spend whatever it takes to win.

A 550hp 997 RSR won't have the pace of current GT1s. It won't have as much horsepower, obviously, or torque, and won't have a meaningful advantage in power-to-weight ratio. And it seems to me that GT2s have more drag, so they'll be slower because of that as well. Besides, the GT1s look substantially better aesthetically. I mean, a Porsche 911 is a nice-looking and fast sports car, but in race trim, it can't hold a candle to a DBR9, S7$ or MC12. Not to mention, how many of the current GT2s have the really big, glorious-sounding, engines? The Panoz Esperante GTLM runs a 5.0-litre Ford V8, while the Porsches and BMWs have six-bangers of 4.0-litres or less. The C6-R has a 7.0-litre Chevy V8. The Saleen S7-R has a 7.0-litre Ford V8. The Viper had an 8.0-litre V10, and the Astons, Maseratis and Ferraris have 6.0-litre V12s.

The production Maserati MC12 has 624hp. The competition version (for GT1) has 620hp, and the special run of MC12 Corsa road cars has the V12 giving 756hp, IIRC.

Last edited by Purist; 9 Aug 2006 at 21:03.
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Old 9 Aug 2006, 21:17 (Ref:1678739)   #15
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Personally I'd replace GT2 with GT3, and replace GT1 with GT2.
If you do that it will take no time before the cost of a front running car will be one million dollars again. Like Purist says
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the closer you get to a car's potential, the harder it is to make improvements
You have to consider what's really expensive in racing. Not materials, but developement. If you have to make a DBR9 or a F430-R and have the building plans ready, they cost the same to build.

Cost's are not determined by the car but by the level of the playing field.

Only a freeze of the rules will put down costs. It will make the field getting closer to the maximum potential of the cars.
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Old 9 Aug 2006, 21:28 (Ref:1678752)   #16
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How have the rules for GT1/GTS radically changed over the past six plus years? It's just plain expensive to build a GT1 car and make it competitive.

I'd love to see a side by side comparison of GM's cost of the C5R and Audi's cost for the R8. They had somewhat similar life spans and both were campaigned as factory efforts.
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Old 9 Aug 2006, 22:48 (Ref:1678826)   #17
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JAG should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridJAG should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridJAG should be qualifying in the top 3 on the grid
The GT1 regs are unnecessarily complex, while the cars have already hit there articficial, ACO imposed, speed/lap limit.

Away from Le Mans the leading GT2 cars are often only a few seconds away from the GT1's, GT2 cars that are affordable to a large number of teams.

Of course costs would go up if a modified GT2 became the top class, but at the moment GT1 is on a course to self destruction, and 4 GT1 cars, no matter how great, are not healthy for the sport.
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Old 9 Aug 2006, 23:45 (Ref:1678860)   #18
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AU N EGL should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridAU N EGL should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
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Originally Posted by Purist
A 550hp 997 RSR won't have the pace of current GT1s. It won't have as much horsepower, obviously, or torque, and won't have a meaningful advantage in power-to-weight ratio. . . . The Panoz Esperante GTLM runs a 5.0-litre Ford V8, while the Porsches and BMWs have six-bangers of 4.0-litres or less. The C6-R has a 7.0-litre Chevy V8. The Saleen S7-R has a 7.0-litre Ford V8. The Viper had an 8.0-litre V10, and the Astons, Maseratis and Ferraris have 6.0-litre V12s.

The production Maserati MC12 has 624hp. The competition version (for GT1) has 620hp, and the special run of MC12 Corsa road cars has the V12 giving 756hp, IIRC.
The Corvette's Katech C6.r 7L motor or an evolution of the C5R block has close to 900 bhp. Read 9 hundred. The C5-R and the C6.R motors have two intakes. Each intake as a restrictor that is the size of an American quarter or 25 mm so that brings the bhp DOWN to 615-620 bhp

the Katechs reliabilty is second to none.

I believe I read some place that the new Ferrari 599 GTC was hopefull for GT1. But with preliminary testing it was slower and not as reliable as the 575 GTCs or the old Pro-Drive developed 550s. So Ferrari is back to the drawing board if at all.

The Viper is too old, the 550s are too old, the new Saleen is hopefull and of course the ProDrive AMs.

OH not only if Ford would put the money into Hollaman Moody again
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Old 10 Aug 2006, 05:46 (Ref:1678937)   #19
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JAG, the minimum GT1/2 weight is 1100kg, with 25kg, I believe, on that for the AC. That's still lighter than any serious road car here, except the Mazda Miata.

As to 'penalties", if you have modification rules based on production volume, the rules themselves WILL be automatically skewed in favor of the Corvette in this category. The C6/Z06 has the performance of a Ferrari 550/575, with a price tag that is lower than a 911 or Viper, and a production volume that dwarves all three. It blows the normal concept of performance for money out the window.

And changing the rules as you guys suggest is only a quick fix. The lower costs will last as long as performance gains cost less than they do now (the closer you get to a car's potential, the harder it is to make improvements), and even that will be blown sky-high if a factory, like GM, comes in and can spend whatever it takes to win.

A 550hp 997 RSR won't have the pace of current GT1s. It won't have as much horsepower, obviously, or torque, and won't have a meaningful advantage in power-to-weight ratio. And it seems to me that GT2s have more drag, so they'll be slower because of that as well. Besides, the GT1s look substantially better aesthetically. I mean, a Porsche 911 is a nice-looking and fast sports car, but in race trim, it can't hold a candle to a DBR9, S7$ or MC12. Not to mention, how many of the current GT2s have the really big, glorious-sounding, engines? The Panoz Esperante GTLM runs a 5.0-litre Ford V8, while the Porsches and BMWs have six-bangers of 4.0-litres or less. The C6-R has a 7.0-litre Chevy V8. The Saleen S7-R has a 7.0-litre Ford V8. The Viper had an 8.0-litre V10, and the Astons, Maseratis and Ferraris have 6.0-litre V12s.

The production Maserati MC12 has 624hp. The competition version (for GT1) has 620hp, and the special run of MC12 Corsa road cars has the V12 giving 756hp, IIRC.
V

Very true, and the costs have not actually gone up, take the price of a front running group four or five car from the past; multiply it by the now common factor of five, and the prices are very similar.

BUT, has the prize money, stayed UP at the same level.
Privateers need the prize money to pay bills, always have, always will.
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Old 10 Aug 2006, 13:18 (Ref:1679228)   #20
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Bob... EXACTLY. Having been apart of privateer GT1 efforts in the ALMS off and on for 6 years now, I can tell you that the prize money certainly does have it's affect on draw for participants. It's one of the issues that could potentially be alleviated with the right "title sponsor". get a large company to put up a million dollar purse and your numbers will go up. The reality is that teams need to be able to race toward monetary goals as well as just the "winning" being "reward enough"...

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Old 10 Aug 2006, 17:01 (Ref:1679323)   #21
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Bob... EXACTLY. Having been apart of privateer GT1 efforts in the ALMS off and on for 6 years now, I can tell you that the prize money certainly does have it's affect on draw for participants. It's one of the issues that could potentially be alleviated with the right "title sponsor". get a large company to put up a million dollar purse and your numbers will go up. The reality is that teams need to be able to race toward monetary goals as well as just the "winning" being "reward enough"...

pit
While any addition funds are great, exactly how much money would be required to make a "real" difference?

Even at 10 races, divided by 20 teams... an (additional $2 mil) purse fund is only going to average out to about $10,000 per race... Normally this gets divided up with the top privateers garnering more of the money (and usually they are the ones who need it least). So, for how many teams is a figure in the neighbourhood of $50,000 to $75,000 going to make or break the year?

The prize fund would really need to be quite massive to make a real difference.
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Old 10 Aug 2006, 18:53 (Ref:1679391)   #22
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They used to run a "money" race at the old Norisring back in the Group C days and it always had huge grids , so it does work .
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Old 10 Aug 2006, 20:58 (Ref:1679487)   #23
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How have the rules for GT1/GTS radically changed over the past six plus years? It's just plain expensive to build a GT1 car and make it competitive.

I'd love to see a side by side comparison of GM's cost of the C5R and Audi's cost for the R8. They had somewhat similar life spans and both were campaigned as factory efforts.
GT1 regs allow more scope for development, as competition has increased the cars have become increasingly complex.

The base GT2 regs are more restrictive, so costs could be kept down, without sacrificing much pace.
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Old 10 Aug 2006, 22:23 (Ref:1679556)   #24
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Other thing you have to keep in mind are the production numbers of one model, in which you can spread the development cost's.

As Porsche is building between 25 and 50 GT3RSR's a year and between 50 and 100 GT3cups, they have a fair amount of chassis on which they can spread their costs. (a lot of RSR and cup parts are the same)
Porsche is the only mfg that really makes money on selling GT2 cars.
(Prodrive likes to do that as well with the DBR9)

The other constructors like Ferrari, Panoz, Spyker and TVR are losing huge amounts of money on their racing effords and on their sales. Maybe Ferrari will make a little profit on their chassis, but the purchasing cost of a new f430 GT2 is more like GT1 money than GT2. Besides their extreme service costs.

Try building a competitive GT2 from scratch. I will cost you at least $ 5.000.000,-. Competitivines not guaranteed. The only possible solution is doing it by some sort of homologation special like the Mosler.

IMHO the costs in GT1 or GT2 are not that different, it's only determinded by the level of competition and numbers. Of which the level in GT1 is determinded by factory effords, and that of GT2 by privateers)

"So lose GT2 and go for all GT1" (just a thought)
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Old 11 Aug 2006, 02:15 (Ref:1679642)   #25
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They used to run a "money" race at the old Norisring back in the Group C days and it always had huge grids , so it does work .
Of course it "can" work, but really, it is an unrealistic expectation these days, at least for Sportscars.
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