Driving standards/ stewarding

[Casper]

I have a feeling that F1 has reached a point where toxicity is a real thing and and there is no going back. I shudder to think what is going to happen in the next few races especially in Holland to the point of crowd violence. Social Media has tribalised F1 along the lines of football and we know has that has turned out. Call me an alarmist but that is how I see it and I will be very pleased if everyone calms down and nothing happens. If it does happen I bet RB don't accept responsibility for the part they have played in keeping the fire alight and will utter all sorts of platitudes after the event. I know I will get criticised for this post but that is how I see things panning out.

[Akrapovic]

Jus a few things to point out from me:

Horner is not "just doing his job" when you get to legal threats. Complaining to the stewards is part of his job - threatening legal action is not. Otherwise do teams get to sue each other over every incident? Ridiculous.

Also, he's basically complaining that the time penalty was not harsh enough and wants it harsher. But these time penalties are not appealable - and this works both ways. You can't have a set of penalties that a team is not allowed to appeal, but opponents are allowed to appeal to make worse.

This is the anti-RBR feeling is because Horner is threatening to sue and Helmut is a helmet. It's not anti-RBR. It's anti these two fuds having a massive tantrum that threatens to upset how the sport works. Suing, and appealing unappealable penalties is dangerous.

For the record, Toto acted like a child as well. Did you get my email? No, because you sent it to the wrong person you gigantic muppet. How are we in a situation where the team principles don't know who to contact, but the fans at home do?

The accident was exciting because it just raised the stakes and the battle. The immediate response from both teams was poor. The continued response from Red Bull has pushed it beyond poor to pathetic.

[Aysedasi]

Originally Posted by Casper

I have a feeling that F1 has reached a point where toxicity is a real thing and and there is no going back. I shudder to think what is going to happen in the next few races especially in Holland to the point of crowd violence. Social Media has tribalised F1 along the lines of football and we know has that has turned out. Call me an alarmist but that is how I see it and I will be very pleased if everyone calms down and nothing happens. If it does happen I bet RB don't accept responsibility for the part they have played in keeping the fire alight and will utter all sorts of platitudes after the event. I know I will get criticised for this post but that is how I see things panning out.

Not by me......

[Lancsbreaker]

Now that the "Review" is a real thing, I'll make two comments:


In contrast to almost everyone else, it would appear, I have on occasion drunk Red Bull, and found it mildly refreshing......


Despite this, I look forward to the FIA fining Red Bull an exemplarary damages amount for bringing the sport into disrepute by frivolous complaints. Given the amount of data analysed on social media I find it hard to imagine that RB have found "new evidence"

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by Lancsbreaker

Given the amount of data analysed on social media

If I had been drinking something when I read that. It would have been squirting out of my nose.

Richard

[Aysedasi]

Originally Posted by Richard Casto

If I had been drinking something when I read that. It would have been squirting out of my nose.

Richard

Thank goodness you weren't drinking Red Bull then!

[Tourer]

Personally I think it's good that RB has put in the review application - shows that the team is prepared to do more than make PR statements about the incident. Whatever the outcome of that review application, hopefully a line might just be drawn under all this.

I can understand the angst at RB - the team works with the driver week in, week out - they go into "battle" as comrades and to see your driver in a shunt that severe is deeply upsetting - thus leading to some over-the-top reactions. Let's not lose sight of the fact that regardless of blame apportion, that was a BIG shunt that could have been much worse for the driver and it was truly a relief to know that Max was able to hobble away.

I actually don't think that RB has been all that much worse than we've seen from some other teams - Toto can be pretty handy with public statements & of course it was only a few races ago that Aston was talking about "further action" in regard to the 2021 rules and impact on their car.

Anyway, the application for review will be heard, it'll either succeed or it won't and we'll have a race at the Hungaroring this weekend.

[Lancsbreaker]

In a way, I'm with Tourer - I can understand Red Bull being upset at a big financial hit.......


And then I read today (albeit on social media) that the engine is OK, so massively reduced impact, both financially and in competition terms....


Who knows?

[Tourer]

Originally Posted by Lancsbreaker

In a way, I'm with Tourer - I can understand Red Bull being upset at a big financial hit.......


And then I read today (albeit on social media) that the engine is OK, so massively reduced impact, both financially and in competition terms....


Who knows?

Thanks Lancsbreaker - I wasn't actually thinking about the financial hit so much (whilst not a small cost, teams do budget for some damage - although no doubt less budgeted in these cost-containment times). I was thinking more about the emotional reaction to your driver being in a shunt that big. That horrible moment when it all goes quiet out on track and your car is out there, or in this case when your driver hits the barriers as hard as this - gut-wrenching, heart-in-mouth stuff for the team and naturally there's a sense of outrage (because as we all know, in motor racing it is always "the other driver's" fault).

[john ruston]

RB is doing it solely to keep pressure on Mercedes.
Another political posturing by an team that is basically a street fighting outfit .
It’s happened, referees have made a decision , that’s it.
Suppose it’s no longer a sport that you take the punches and get on with it but rather try to change history.
Bit like rerun of 76.
It’s all nonsense.

[Aysedasi]

Originally Posted by Tourer

Thanks Lancsbreaker - I wasn't actually thinking about the financial hit so much (whilst not a small cost, teams do budget for some damage - although no doubt less budgeted in these cost-containment times). I was thinking more about the emotional reaction to your driver being in a shunt that big. That horrible moment when it all goes quiet out on track and your car is out there, or in this case when your driver hits the barriers as hard as this - gut-wrenching, heart-in-mouth stuff for the team and naturally there's a sense of outrage (because as we all know, in motor racing it is always "the other driver's" fault).

I understand that. But does it justify a review....? In my opinion, a racing incident doesn't justify the lengths to which RBR have taken it.

[wnut]

Originally Posted by Aysedasi

I understand that. But does it justify a review....? In my opinion, a racing incident doesn't justify the lengths to which RBR have taken it.

I think too many things get swept under the carpet as "racing incidents", as far as I am concerned the FIA needs to make a statement and keep the racing clean, I would like to see a racing contest, not some mug driving into another.

Kenny Roberts once said " Any twelve year old can wind on the throttle just as hard as I can, its knowing when to apply the brakes that counts."

Any two mugs can drive into one another, it is keeping it clean that takes skill.

When the cars were fragile and made of tin foil and the track was surrounded by trees, the consequences of tangling with one another did not bear thinking about, so the racing tended to be clean and the incidental contacts were genuine accidents. Now dear Toto is enthusiastically forecasting that there will be more clashes this season, this is unacceptable.

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by wnut

Now dear Toto is enthusiastically forecasting that there will be more clashes this season, this is unacceptable.

'Enthusiastically forecasting'? The quote I have seen reads:
“It certainly will not be the last time they fight for position and hopefully they can do it in a sportsmanlike way. And, if not, we will see more collisions.”

[john ruston]

Looked at an incident between Dutchman and rich Canadian child from previous years and it’s precisely the same as the Silverstone situation
Interesting Gerry Horners take on it.
Can we go back to racing for grown ups?

[ascarracinguk]

Max Verstappen Said:

"So yeah, that's what I found really disrespectful (the celebrations) and in a way I mean it shows how they really are, you know. It comes out after a pressured situation. But I wouldn't want to be seen like that."


....the delicious irony


....Continually moaning for 2 weeks comes out of a pressured situation...guess that shows how Max and Red Bull really are..

[Aysedasi]

Originally Posted by wnut

I think too many things get swept under the carpet as "racing incidents", as far as I am concerned the FIA needs to make a statement and keep the racing clean, I would like to see a racing contest, not some mug driving into another.

Needless to say, I don't. Nor do I consider either of the drivers concerned 'some mug'.

[john ruston]

Originally Posted by Aysedasi

Needless to say, I don't. Nor do I consider either of the drivers concerned 'some mug'.

The drivers are certainly not mugs .
The top guys are top of their trade and know precisely what their doing.
This continuing complaining about the Silverstone incident is pathetic.
If you want to see some iffy driving join me at Silverstone Festival this weekend
100 + cars eighty years old , no belts or not in much of brakes driven mostly by people who are old enough to be Eff 1 drivers fathers or grandfathers.
I’ll check how many passes at Copse and it will be called Copse not turn whatever.

[Lancsbreaker]

And the verdict is:


"Formula 1 officials have rejected Red Bull's request for a reassessment of the penalty given to Lewis Hamilton at the British Grand Prix.Stewards at this weekend's Hungarian Grand Prix ruled there was no significant additional evidence to take into account."


Quote from BBC website.

[Aysedasi]

Good. Let's get on with Hungary.

[Taxi645]

https://www.motorsportmagazine.com/articles/single-seaters/f1/wild-scenes-in-the-f1-stewards-room-inside-view-from-a-penalty-controversy

Posted it in this thread because it is more about the stewarding process rather than the Copse incident specifically.

[Aysedasi]

Interesting article thanks very much.

[Tourer]

Originally Posted by Aysedasi

I understand that. But does it justify a review....? In my opinion, a racing incident doesn't justify the lengths to which RBR have taken it.

No argument from me on that score - although I do think that RB kinda painted themselves into a corner and needed to "put the money where the mouth is" when they kept on about it. I can understand the team reaction, I really can but there's a point of flogging a dead horse that any pro team should understand and stand down.

[Skam85]

Originally Posted by ascarracinguk

Max Verstappen Said:

"So yeah, that's what I found really disrespectful (the celebrations) and in a way I mean it shows how they really are, you know. It comes out after a pressured situation. But I wouldn't want to be seen like that."


....the delicious irony


....Continually moaning for 2 weeks comes out of a pressured situation...guess that shows how Max and Red Bull really are..

Max specifically has done one social media post about it and then answered questions the media have asked him.

Hardly would call that two weeks of moaning.

RB have banged on about it plenty and for too long, but Max just seems to me like he's seething but just wants to get back in the car and win again.

[2 litre Touring Car Star]

wnut's clarity and understanding of what's going on the meaning behind it blows the rest of you out of the water.

This post...

Originally Posted by wnut

I think too many things get swept under the carpet as "racing incidents", as far as I am concerned the FIA needs to make a statement and keep the racing clean, I would like to see a racing contest, not some mug driving into another.

Kenny Roberts once said " Any twelve year old can wind on the throttle just as hard as I can, its knowing when to apply the brakes that counts."

Any two mugs can drive into one another, it is keeping it clean that takes skill.

When the cars were fragile and made of tin foil and the track was surrounded by trees, the consequences of tangling with one another did not bear thinking about, so the racing tended to be clean and the incidental contacts were genuine accidents. Now dear Toto is enthusiastically forecasting that there will be more clashes this season, this is unacceptable.

And this one in the race thread...

Originally Posted by wnut

There is a little thing called a WDC on the line, and Hamilton's mistake has benefitted himself handsomely and cost his main rival dearly, for no real penalty.
You can't expect it to be much appreciated or easily accepted.

Toto was whining about the cost cap implications of his drivers ruining a couple of wings on a curb, however Hamilton has succeeded in writing off a complete car, engine, gearbox for RBR,

A lot of you undermine yourselves with your lax opinions. wnut even explains why there is a lax attitude and why the term "racing incident" occurred in the first post.

Passing off such collisions as "racing incidents" is not good enough anymore. It'll just make things harder down the road. Dare I say, there would be a variety of interpretations if all of you were asked what a "racing incident" was?

[2 litre Touring Car Star]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

Jus a few things to point out from me:

Horner is not "just doing his job" when you get to legal threats. Complaining to the stewards is part of his job - threatening legal action is not. Otherwise do teams get to sue each other over every incident? Ridiculous.

Also, he's basically complaining that the time penalty was not harsh enough and wants it harsher. But these time penalties are not appealable - and this works both ways. You can't have a set of penalties that a team is not allowed to appeal, but opponents are allowed to appeal to make worse.

This is the anti-RBR feeling is because Horner is threatening to sue and Helmut is a helmet. It's not anti-RBR. It's anti these two fuds having a massive tantrum that threatens to upset how the sport works. Suing, and appealing unappealable penalties is dangerous.

For the record, Toto acted like a child as well. Did you get my email? No, because you sent it to the wrong person you gigantic muppet. How are we in a situation where the team principles don't know who to contact, but the fans at home do?

The accident was exciting because it just raised the stakes and the battle. The immediate response from both teams was poor. The continued response from Red Bull has pushed it beyond poor to pathetic.

They can if they want. It would probably lead to a thorough examination of conduct in the future which would make it better.