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Old 15 May 2024, 16:38 (Ref:4209058)   #901
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Originally Posted by TF110 View Post
If all cars are in a "performance window" then the bop shouldn't be so spread apart. This means that the window is wider than we thought or there's more to the car's pace than just its power and weight. But the weight is something that hinders any car no matter how good.
https://www.theracingline.net/spa-20...ysis-jota-win/

The window is pretty tight tbh. Only Lambo, Peugeot and Isotta were mnore than a second off when you look at top 20% of laps.

However, despite the tight window, it should be noted that all 4 top cars were Porsches. However (again), the Porsches fastest laps came after the red flag after the temperatures dropped. In the heat, the Ferrari was fastest.
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Old 15 May 2024, 18:01 (Ref:4209065)   #902
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Originally Posted by Adam43 View Post
Too things here.

Is it a big window or a small window? How is this measured and defined?
You infer this is a wide spread. Is it? How is that measured and defined?

You don’t have a definition of either so you can’t claim that.
You might have an expectation, but that isn’t based on anything.

Now maybe you can argue that this means it isn’t transparent, but frankly even if it was it still adds no value to you.

We know that the ACO wanted a range of cars and looks, so this may be as expected. Also it’s new for the ACO so they could have cunningly added a decent level of flexibility.

Based on the spread of lap times, and here we can reference something we can consider historical spreads, we see a pretty close grid of many cars. Closer than many eras when they all ran to the same weight!

Not meaning to be curt, just stating what we actually have and what we can judge. We don’t know what the expectation was so we can’t judge this.
In my post I never claimed knowledge of anything exact. But we do have quotes from teams/manufacturers and the ACO itself saying there's a performance window the cars need to be in (not just hypercars but GT3's as well). On top of that we know there's a minimum weight of 1030kg and a max power around 680-690hp, plus the l/d ratio that's capped at a certain amount for hypercars. That's the "window" I'm referring to. It seems like it's pretty straightforward and the recipe should have many cakes equal in size and taste, but right now there's much better bakers and/or ingredients being used in some kitchens
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Old 15 May 2024, 18:11 (Ref:4209066)   #903
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However (again), the Porsches fastest laps came after the red flag after the temperatures dropped. In the heat, the Ferrari was fastest.
Yes, I wrote that few days ago. Nothing new, we saw at Daytona
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Old 15 May 2024, 18:15 (Ref:4209068)   #904
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Originally Posted by TF110 View Post
It seems like it's pretty straightforward and the recipe should have many cakes equal in size and taste, but right now there's much better bakers and/or ingredients being used in some kitchens
Good words!
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Old 15 May 2024, 19:25 (Ref:4209075)   #905
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Originally Posted by tomcug View Post
Yes, I wrote that few days ago. Nothing new, we saw at Daytona
Yes, but what we didn't see at Daytona was Ferrari.
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Old 15 May 2024, 19:54 (Ref:4209080)   #906
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BoP. Brilliant or Pants.

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Originally Posted by TF110 View Post
In my post I never claimed knowledge of anything exact. But we do have quotes from teams/manufacturers and the ACO itself saying there's a performance window the cars need to be in (not just hypercars but GT3's as well). On top of that we know there's a minimum weight of 1030kg and a max power around 680-690hp, plus the l/d ratio that's capped at a certain amount for hypercars. That's the "window" I'm referring to.
What you describe is not the performance window. It is the edge of some physical attributes of the car. So not performance nor a window.

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It seems like it's pretty straightforward and the recipe should have many cakes equal in size and taste, but right now there's much better bakers and/or ingredients being used in some kitchens
That’s exactly not what this current rule set is. The cakes are meant to be different.

Let’s try this analogy. We should have a variety of cakes with different ingredients. They will be of similar size, similar calories, but a variety of different ingredients, tastes and colors.

They should all provide a similar window of satisfaction for the eater. However the ACO can add or remove sugar and butter to help.

One nuance is that some of the are chocolate based cakes (LMH) or fruit based cakes (LMDh).
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Old 15 May 2024, 20:04 (Ref:4209081)   #907
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Maybe you wouldn't call it a window, or you don't understand why I use it, but I feel like a performance target including set parameters for the cars, is what the governing bodies are talking about with that word. If my terminology is off, then I guess I should stop quoting the rule makers and the teams.

I'm not talking about physical attributes of the cars or their looks. I'm talking about performance and lap times which the rule makers targeted when starting the hypercar class.
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Old 15 May 2024, 21:07 (Ref:4209088)   #908
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BoP. Brilliant or Pants.

You were taking about the physical attributes of the cars I saw in your post. And you said the cakes were the same size with your analogy.

So apologizes if I took that wrong and read too much into it.

Also apologizes if I gave the impression that performance window isn’t a thing. There is a performance window they are aiming for. I’m not saying they shouldn’t use the word. Just that you can’t see if it is narrow, wide, or whatever.

I am saying that we have no data on what the performance window actually is or how it is defined. And that your thought of what it is meant by performance window isn’t quite right.

But weight, power, along with drag, downforce, sensitivity to, are all inputs that are used to get the car in the performance window. Also lap times aren’t the performance window either, but are obviously related to it.

https://tentenths.com/forum/showpost...&postcount=815

Last edited by Adam43; 15 May 2024 at 21:26.
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Old 16 May 2024, 00:36 (Ref:4209108)   #909
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And not all of Porsche's wins came against the stiffest of oppostion every time, either. Same for some of Ferrari's wins, etc, etc. LM's history as far as big factory competition has tended to be feast or famine. But at the end of the day, you can only race the racetrack, clock and whoever bothers to show up.

And this is pretty much it isn't it?


Anyway all this talk of BoP cake is making me hungry.
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Old 16 May 2024, 01:21 (Ref:4209109)   #910
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Chocolate or fruit cake?
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Old 16 May 2024, 01:51 (Ref:4209111)   #911
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Instead of size of the cake, maybe I should have said the weight But the point of my original comment about more to the performance than power and weight was that those are the main two things being changed in bop. So I was poking a little fun at the rule makers thinking they can balance it so easily. Just like different bakeries, your cake is going to differ like these cars, even if it seems straightforward (the bop), it's much more complicated to get the same cake (performance). Now I'm hungry as well!
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Old 16 May 2024, 02:07 (Ref:4209113)   #912
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Chocolate or fruit cake?

Either or, or maybe just Pound as it relates to the discussion
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Old 22 May 2024, 15:53 (Ref:4209996)   #913
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Peugeot aren't blatantly saying bop is bad for them, but they are actually saying it is bad for them without using the word bop
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Old 23 May 2024, 00:15 (Ref:4210044)   #914
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Having a car only two races old is bad for them. Although they point out it is inherently better than the old one.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Finot
From what we see in Spa, we’re one second behind pole position,” said Finot. “Last year we were 2.4 seconds behind. There’s already a good gain.
https://sportscar365.com/lemans/wec/...y-9x8-program/
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Old 23 May 2024, 12:14 (Ref:4210074)   #915
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I'd give Peugeot a performance bump for Le Mans, why not.

Ditto Alpine, Lambo, smaller one for BMW/Caddy. Small cut back for Porsche and Ferrari. Leave Toyota the same. Sorted!
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Old 23 May 2024, 13:09 (Ref:4210080)   #916
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I'd give Peugeot a performance bump for Le Mans, why not.

Ditto Alpine, Lambo, smaller one for BMW/Caddy. Small cut back for Porsche and Ferrari. Leave Toyota the same. Sorted!

I'd say Caddy is already in the ballpark, I'd leave them as is. I think Alpine is about as performant as BMW, I'd equal their adjustment (small). I'd only make minor adjustments on the Peugeot. Small power bump, small weight reduction (equalize across them, Toyota and IF). I wouldn't risk giving them a healthy helping of Vitamin BoP, that car has pace, I'm glad they put in the work to revise it, but they knew what they were doing going in from the jump, no leaning on the pillar of laziness now.
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Old 24 May 2024, 03:45 (Ref:4210123)   #917
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Imo there's no reason the Ferrari and specifically the Porsche should be much if any lighter than cars like the Isotta and Peugeot.
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