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Old 13 Nov 2017, 16:48 (Ref:3780206)   #126
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Originally Posted by sparkione View Post
There may be those who'd say the same about you. Lewis, for example.

He's a breath of fresh air – honest, courteous and utterly straightforward. So he has a big red airliner and a somewhat sudden taste in clothing; well that's fine by me – particularly when I compare him with some today's Premier League drongos.

And a great driver? Of course he is – up there with the crême de la crême. We should cherish him, and worry more about where the next great British driver is going to come from. Because Lulu will leave a very big gap in the scenery when he finally does hang up his helmet.

He's now the best driver ever to come out of the UK, and a warm word or two of congratulations from Stewart wouldn't have come amiss. Or did I miss it?
I freely admit that Hamilton polarises opinions, and having admired him somewhat when he first entered F1 with McLaren, I no longer find him to my liking. However, some people seem to view him through rose-tinted glasses and eyes covered in glitter.

Honest? No! For example when he lied to the FIA, and was forced to make an apology.

Courteous? No. For example, when he went behind Mercedes' back to "clarify" that his team-mate should have his pole-time annulled. Where was the curtesy shown to his paymasters?

Utterly straightforward? Not on your nelly. The above situation, going behind his team's back to try to get an advantage over Rosberg. Plus all the other mind tricks that he plays with his team-mates.

As for being the best drive ever to be born in the UK, you really have to be laughing. He's not even the best of the rest! He bares no comparison with the likes of Jim Clark, Stirling Moss or even the ex-driver you call out, Jackie Stewart. Not forgetting other greats such as John Surtees, Mike Hawthorn, Piers Courage, James Hunt, Graham Hill, Nigel Mansell and the list goes on and on.
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Old 13 Nov 2017, 17:08 (Ref:3780211)   #127
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well he isnt a saint (just a sportsperson) but surely his titles, wins, and pole numbers make him, by most metrics (i think win percentage per starts and win percentage over one season are where Clark is still ahead), the most successful British racing driver to have ever raced in F1.

far be it for me to say who anyone should like more, but objectively he is statistically, at the least either 1 or 2, one of the most successful British drivers ever.

anyways, i dont want this post to come across as a LH apologist statement (as some of his behaviour has also given me pause - skipping the London event this year being at the top of my list)...but if the numbers are not the most important thing then are we not just devaluing all of the accomplishments of every driver in contention for the title of best British driver of all time?
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Old 13 Nov 2017, 17:26 (Ref:3780218)   #128
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Ah, but chilli, in motor racing success doesn't necessarily equate to driving greatness. For that to happen, there would have to be equality between the teams and their machinery, and that certainly hasn't happened in the last decade or two.

At certain periods, certain cars have been streets ahead of the competition, and for them it was always a race to be the best of the rest. And the latest Mercedes years have been the same, except in some exceptional races where for one reason or another, Mercedes didn't dominate.

Acknowledged throughout the world as probably one of the best two or three drivers ever, Stirling Moss never even achieved a WDC. But he is still one of the greatest, and he comes from the UK, and what's more, he has a great personality both when he was on and off the track.
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Old 13 Nov 2017, 18:59 (Ref:3780242)   #129
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I'll say it again. From a sporting perspective, he is a tremendous driver and a true racer. Little doubt in my mind he is right up there with the best drivers in history, let alone from Blighty! I enjoy watching him on track.

Out of the car he hardly ever comes across as genuine or remotely charismatic. It is a shame because he clearly does think quite deeply about his craft and up until this year only existed to race.

I hope outside interests do not affect his ability to do the job as pretty sure if the equipment remains good, he has every chance of netting another couple of titles.
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Old 13 Nov 2017, 19:51 (Ref:3780253)   #130
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As for being the best drive ever to be born in the UK, you really have to be laughing. He's not even the best of the rest! He bares no comparison with the likes of Jim Clark, Stirling Moss or even the ex-driver you call out, Jackie Stewart. Not forgetting other greats such as John Surtees, Mike Hawthorn, Piers Courage, James Hunt, Graham Hill, Nigel Mansell and the list goes on and on.
OK, just talking about driving (then we can ignore wearing too much tartan)?

I'll take the first two as definite. He can be compared to the others and some of them he clearly should be considered better.

I'm not going to chose a name from the list and point out why they are worse. I suspect some wouldn't be able to take it, even though it wouldn't be meant as a slight against them as they are all good drivers who are integral to the history of our sport. However some of them, in terms of relative driving talent, aren't the very top draw.

(Different eras, comparison, difficult, trees, etc...)
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Old 13 Nov 2017, 21:12 (Ref:3780285)   #131
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Personaly, I think it's very difficult to make these comparisons but that doesn't mean we aren't allowed to. However, not wanting to state the obvious, firstly they are subjective. Secondly, although the basic format is still there, technologically the sport has moved on so much and like wise, so has an F1 season, which now runs for the best part of 8 months, with 20 races.
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Old 13 Nov 2017, 21:22 (Ref:3780293)   #132
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Ah, but chilli, in motor racing success doesn't necessarily equate to driving greatness. For that to happen, there would have to be equality between the teams and their machinery, and that certainly hasn't happened in the last decade or two.

At certain periods, certain cars have been streets ahead of the competition, and for them it was always a race to be the best of the rest. And the latest Mercedes years have been the same, except in some exceptional races where for one reason or another, Mercedes didn't dominate.
To be fair, it wan't so different in Clark's day was it?


I confess it heartily disappoints me the way that Hamilton polarises views and the manner in which things which have little or nothing to do with his racing ability are brought into discussions as if to demonstrate that he somehow isn't as good as, say, Mansell or Hunt, which I'd like to think most would agree is patent nonsense. One day, perhaps with another couple of WDCs to his name, Hamilton will get the credit he deserves. I'm a Brit and I'm very pleased indeed to have him as WDC - a result he thoroughly deserves.
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Old 13 Nov 2017, 23:04 (Ref:3780308)   #133
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He can be a bit of a prat out of the car, always trying to make out there is something there isn’t, talking like he wants a strong team mate when he doesn’t, things like that. He goes and lives in a different place for tax reasons. However in the car he’s great to watch and super quick. He can battle through the field and clearly can dominate from the front in the best car. Then there is the personal appearance which some see as daft, especially as after getting rid of it the moustache is back.
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Old 13 Nov 2017, 23:29 (Ref:3780313)   #134
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To be fair, it wan't so different in Clark's day was it?


I confess it heartily disappoints me the way that Hamilton polarises views and the manner in which things which have little or nothing to do with his racing ability are brought into discussions as if to demonstrate that he somehow isn't as good as, say, Mansell or Hunt, which I'd like to think most would agree is patent nonsense. One day, perhaps with another couple of WDCs to his name, Hamilton will get the credit he deserves. I'm a Brit and I'm very pleased indeed to have him as WDC - a result he thoroughly deserves.
If you take Hamilton's qualifying record against other British Drivers:

Qualifying Records
Brise 9 to 0 - Perfect
Hunt 49 to 4 - 1225%
Clark 52 to 15 - 346%
Moss 24 to 7 - 342%
Surtees 57 to 17 - 335%
Stewart 69 to 27 - 256%
G. Hill 88 to 44 - 200%
Hamilton 121 to 69 - 175%
D.Hill 59 to 55 - 107%
Mansell 92 to 97 - 95%
Button 125 to 170 - 74%


Hamilton's record is not so flash.

Clark and Stewart obviously not English.

Senna 140 to 18 - 778%

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Old 14 Nov 2017, 00:21 (Ref:3780317)   #135
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........
As for being the best drive ever to be born in the UK, you really have to be laughing. He's not even the best of the rest! He bares no comparison with the likes of Jim Clark, Stirling Moss or even the ex-driver you call out, Jackie Stewart. Not forgetting other greats such as John Surtees, Mike Hawthorn, Piers Courage, James Hunt, Graham Hill, Nigel Mansell and the list goes on and on.
Clark died at the same age as Lewis is now - but achieved numerically far less in his years at the pinnacle (F1).
Moss was also the same age when the accident ended his career, but again achieved far less in those years at F1 level.
Stewart had the benefit of an extra couple of years on career length but still can't match the WDCs and poles etc. Also I never liked his affectation of the tartan, a quite unecessary distraction.
As for the rest one might not want to hold up Hawthorn, Hill or Hunt as perfect examples of the British gentleman, what with all the drinking, shagging and road-racing they got up to.
And wasn't Our Nige one of the more famous Isle of Man & Jersey resident tax-avoiders?
But I do appreciate that for some they will have been boyhood heroes and therefore beyond reproach.
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Old 14 Nov 2017, 00:54 (Ref:3780318)   #136
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Clark died at the same age as Lewis is now - but achieved numerically far less in his years at the pinnacle (F1).
Moss was also the same age when the accident ended his career, but again achieved far less in those years at F1 level.
Stewart had the benefit of an extra couple of years on career length but still can't match the WDCs and poles etc. Also I never liked his affectation of the tartan, a quite unecessary distraction.
As for the rest one might not want to hold up Hawthorn, Hill or Hunt as perfect examples of the British gentleman, what with all the drinking, shagging and road-racing they got up to.
And wasn't Our Nige one of the more famous Isle of Man & Jersey resident tax-avoiders?
But I do appreciate that for some they will have been boyhood heroes and therefore beyond reproach.
Regarding Clark, Moss and Stewart, achieving numerically far less in their years in F1 compared to Hamilton, that's surely down to fewer races per season, therefore less opportunity. In the late '50s and early '60s, when Moss and Clark were racing, there were roughly 8 to 9 races. When Stewart was racing it was more or less 11. In 2007, Hamilton's first season it was 17 and now it's 20.
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Old 14 Nov 2017, 01:49 (Ref:3780319)   #137
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But I do appreciate that for some they will have been boyhood heroes and therefore beyond reproach.
quite...

getting really bored of every thread descending into the same argument wearing a different outfit. cmon guys, you're better than this.
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Old 14 Nov 2017, 02:01 (Ref:3780320)   #138
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Razzzor should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridRazzzor should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridRazzzor should be qualifying in the top 3 on the grid
Who in the blue hell is Brise. Going go by those stats he's the greatest Brit qualifier of all time.

I think it's a bit hard to just compare straight stats. While Hamilton may not have the best qualy comparison, he's also had some great team mates with Alonso, Button, Rosberg all champions themselves.

I do think however that the competition in F1 today is very strong. The way Hamilton usually performs at his best consistently and usually beats top team mates I feel he's one of the best. I think if you asked Jackie Stewart if he could beat Hamilton in his prime, he'd probably say no. Same with many of those brits. Nig might not admit it.

I think Jim Clark probably the obvious guy you'd put ahead of Hamilton. Some might say Moss, but it's just a different era. The rest not sure.

Take a look over Jim Clark's team mates at Lotus, they're mostly complete nobodies. He had a couple of races with John Surtees and then nobodies that never won a single GP until Graham Hill joined Lotus in Jim's final full year before his death. So that rules Jim out of the qualifying head to head completely. Looking at Hunt since he's high on the list... first 3 seasons a 1 car team. Next season nobody team mates. Next 2 seasons Jochen Mass (ho hum), Patrick Tambay, then he retired. So Hunts not relevant.

So yeah head to head quali is skewed with some of the older eras where driver talent probably isn't what it is today throughout the field. Many teams only had 1 main good driver because they couldn't afford 2 or 3. Nowadays the top teams can all afford 2 of the best. Still interesting stats though.
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Old 14 Nov 2017, 02:13 (Ref:3780321)   #139
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Who in the blue hell is Brise. Going go by those stats he's the greatest Brit qualifier of all time.

I think it's a bit hard to just compare straight stats. While Hamilton may not have the best qualy comparison, he's also had some great team mates with Alonso, Button, Rosberg all champions themselves.

I do think however that the competition in F1 today is very strong. The way Hamilton usually performs at his best consistently and usually beats top team mates I feel he's one of the best. I think if you asked Jackie Stewart if he could beat Hamilton in his prime, he'd probably say no. Same with many of those brits. Nig might not admit it.

I think Jim Clark probably the obvious guy you'd put ahead of Hamilton. Some might say Moss, but it's just a different era. The rest not sure.

Take a look over Jim Clark's team mates at Lotus, they're mostly complete nobodies. He had a couple of races with John Surtees and then nobodies that never won a single GP until Graham Hill joined Lotus in Jim's final full year before his death. So that rules Jim out of the qualifying head to head completely. Looking at Hunt since he's high on the list... first 3 seasons a 1 car team. Next season nobody team mates. Next 2 seasons Jochen Mass (ho hum), Patrick Tambay, then he retired. So Hunts not relevant.

So yeah head to head quali is skewed with some of the older eras where driver talent probably isn't what it is today throughout the field. Many teams only had 1 main good driver because they couldn't afford 2 or 3. Nowadays the top teams can all afford 2 of the best. Still interesting stats though.
I presume Tony Brise, who drove for Embassy Racing With Graham Hill, Graham Hill's team in 1975. He was killed along with Graham Hill in a plane crash as the pilot attempted to land at Elstree Airfield in thick fog at night.
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Old 14 Nov 2017, 08:02 (Ref:3780349)   #140
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Tony Brise's team mate was a 40-something former WDC and it was only a handful of races. Jackie Stewart's were very good #2 drivers.

Lies, damned lies and statistics.

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Old 14 Nov 2017, 08:36 (Ref:3780352)   #141
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I think he will fall in the top level of British champions but will never be considered above them. Only figures will decide that.

I rate his first title as his best, the rest have been achieved in a massively dominant car, much like all of Vettel's and Schumacher's.

And for a few of those years he was closely challenged by a team-mate who not only got under his skin eventually but worked out a way to beat him and did it. But not a man who many would consider a massive talent who should have been winning titles for years.

He has no charisma, unlike Vettel who though a tool in the car is funny and engaging out of it. I compare tLewis o MS really, a guy who was remarkably good at his job. The difference is that Michael made no effort to be anything out of the car, Lewis tried to force it for some reason, and for some it works, but for most we see through it. At least he tries, but the trying to put his arm around Rosberg that time, that kind of stuff, it is just smarm and very, very fake. He will win countless titles, races and records but will not be remember with the same fondness as guys who won far less.
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Old 14 Nov 2017, 08:47 (Ref:3780353)   #142
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Tony Brise's team mate was a 40-something former WDC and it was only a handful of races. Jackie Stewart's were very good #2 drivers.

Lies, damned lies and statistics.

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Brise never qualified against Hill.
His team mates were Alan Jones 4 - 0, Rolf Stommelen2 - 0, Francois Migault 1 - 0, Merzario 1 - 0, and Verne Schuppan 1 -0.

Hill took one look at Brise's testing times and decided his own services were no longer required as a driver.

Stommelen out qualified Hill 4 - 0 in 1974.

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Old 14 Nov 2017, 09:09 (Ref:3780356)   #143
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And wasn't Our Nige one of the more famous Isle of Man & Jersey resident tax-avoiders?
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Old 14 Nov 2017, 10:28 (Ref:3780365)   #144
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I presume Tony Brise, who drove for Embassy Racing With Graham Hill, Graham Hill's team in 1975. He was killed along with Graham Hill in a plane crash as the pilot attempted to land at Elstree Airfield in thick fog at night.
#

Graham was the pilot which made it even more tragic.
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Old 14 Nov 2017, 10:50 (Ref:3780367)   #145
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#

Graham was the pilot which made it even more tragic.
So he was, that slipped my mind. Very tragic.
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Old 14 Nov 2017, 13:02 (Ref:3780377)   #146
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You want to go there?
not particularly, just reminding that it's always been that way. I don't disagree with it, and I certainly don't think Lewis should be pilloried for it - I'd do it myself if I had enough to make it worthwhile
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Old 14 Nov 2017, 13:07 (Ref:3780379)   #147
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Originally Posted by wnut View Post
Brise never qualified against Hill.
His team mates were Alan Jones 4 - 0, Rolf Stommelen2 - 0, Francois Migault 1 - 0, Merzario 1 - 0, and Verne Schuppan 1 -0.

Hill took one look at Brise's testing times and decided his own services were no longer required as a driver.

Stommelen out qualified Hill 4 - 0 in 1974.
Fair enough I stand corrected. But let's be fair, my point still stands. Apart from AJ, those drivers hardly set the world alight.

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Old 14 Nov 2017, 18:17 (Ref:3780432)   #148
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quite...

getting really bored of every thread descending into the same argument wearing a different outfit. cmon guys, you're better than this.
Here here say I (suppressing a yawn......).
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Old 14 Nov 2017, 19:50 (Ref:3780446)   #149
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quite...

getting really bored of every thread descending into the same argument wearing a different outfit. cmon guys, you're better than this.
It seems not.
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Old 14 Nov 2017, 22:13 (Ref:3780477)   #150
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Got beaten by Rosberg last year. Lewis is alright but getting beaten by his team mates on a regular basis doesn't warrant my top 10 fastest drivers ever.
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