2020 Silly Season

[steve_r]

Where would Formula E be without the ex Red Bull / Torro Rosso drivers...

[S griffin]

Originally Posted by BertMk2

But without Red Bull backing their careers may well have stalled (or ended) a lot sooner. Some of these drivers wouldn't have had the budget to get out of the national formulas without Red Bull backing. Yes they're ruthless but for a lot of drivers it's a case of take a chance with Red Bull or look for another career.

It's true, a lot of drivers wouldn't have even have got a chance without the Red Bull scheme. At the same time it can make or break a career, because once you have a chance the pressure is on to perform. Not saying it's good or bad, just one that should not be entered into lightly. You have to really show you have it or it's curtains

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by S griffin

At the same time it can make or break a career, because once you have a chance the pressure is on to perform. Not saying it's good or bad, just one that should not be entered into lightly. You have to really show you have it or it's curtains

I'm not saying I disagree - but isn't that the case with nearly all other driver schemes?
I'm still not clear why Red Bull are being singled out as ruthless compared to others?

[chillibowl]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

I'm still not clear why Red Bull are being singled out as ruthless compared to others?

i would guess because Helmut Marko carries it that way?

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by chillibowl

i would guess because Helmut Marko carries it that way?

Possibly - perhaps they are more vocal when releasing drivers than others, but I'm pretty sure none of the driver schemes entertain those not making the grade for very long.

[S griffin]

You never saw Mercedes dropping Bottas midway through 2018 for say Ocon. That’s the difference

Ok in some of Red Bull’s cases, like dropping Kvyat for Max, the results have been justified, but still, it can be really damaging for a driver to be dropped at a stroke

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by S griffin

You never saw Mercedes dropping Bottas midway through 2018 for say Ocon. That’s the difference

Ok in some of Red Bull’s cases, like dropping Kvyat for Max, the results have been justified, but still, it can be really damaging for a driver to be dropped at a stroke

You could argue that it's less ruthless.

Would you rather get an F1 drive then be demoted, or just get cut from the programme before even starting a race?

[S griffin]

No, sorry that argument doesn’t really stack up

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by S griffin

No, sorry that argument doesn’t really stack up

So where is the ruthlessness?

In the junior programme, or in the mainstream team?

Kvyat dropped from the team is different to never getting a seat in the first place.

[wnut]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

So where is the ruthlessness?

In the junior programme, or in the mainstream team?

Kvyat dropped from the team is different to never getting a seat in the first place.

I agree with you CR, I think that the Red Bull program is probably the fairest in racing, in that the best driver available to them in their program gets the seat. They don't hang onto drivers that they feel don't deserve the seat, and there apparently is room for redemption if they think a driver is worth it, like the case of Kvyat. This is how team selection should work imo.

[GreenMachine]

Junior driver programs are not social security. They require discipline, hard work, and above all, performance. It's like a lab experiment, the drivers are the candidates, under the microscope, being tested, and only the best will survive - and that is the point of the exercise.

RB get bad press, and I have no love for The Helmet, but credit where it is due.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by S griffin

You never saw Mercedes dropping Bottas midway through 2018 for say Ocon. That’s the difference

Ok in some of Red Bull’s cases, like dropping Kvyat for Max, the results have been justified, but still, it can be really damaging for a driver to be dropped at a stroke

Iirc, Bottas was initially given a one year contract with Merc. However, he proved to be such an effective wingman for Hamilton, dropping him would have been a mistake.

[wnut]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

Iirc, Bottas was initially given a one year contract with Merc. However, he proved to be such an effective wingman for Hamilton, dropping him would have been a mistake.

I must admit, Bottas' continued employment at Merc validates the Red Bull approach completely. The only reason he is still there is because of the absolute dominance of Merc, Ocon should have that seat.

[steve nielsen]

Originally Posted by wnut

I must admit, Bottas' continued employment at Merc validates the Red Bull approach completely. The only reason he is still there is because of the absolute dominance of Merc, Ocon should have that seat.

at least Bottas was never lapped by Hamilton where Gasly WAS lapped by Max Verstappen more than once.

[S griffin]

I think the pressure from Red Bull doesn't really help if you want the best out of your driver. That's just how I see it

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by S griffin

I think the pressure from Red Bull doesn't really help if you want the best out of your driver. That's just how I see it

I know what you mean in terms of how it has been portrayed - I just think other programmes are equally as pressured. Possibly even more ruthless if they cut you earlier in your development, before you've got a drive in F1.

[S griffin]

I think because those in the junior formula aren’t in the public eye as much as F1 it doesn’t seem to be noticed as much when they are dropped

[chunterer]

Originally Posted by wnut

I must admit, Bottas' continued employment at Merc validates the Red Bull approach completely. The only reason he is still there is because of the absolute dominance of Merc, Ocon should have that seat.

But the reason Bottas IS there is because he has been a good no.2 driver. He has shown plenty of times that he is more than good enough to win regularly, but he also gets the word over the radio regularly which prevents him winning more.

[S griffin]

Problem is Bottas has days when he can beat anyone, but he also has races where he disappears and that’s why he has yet to give his team mate a proper run for the title. Still it was good to see him win a couple towards the end of last season

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by S griffin

Problem is Bottas has days when he can beat anyone, but he also has races where he disappears and that’s why he has yet to give his team mate a proper run for the title.

Who's that a problem for?

[Skam85]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

Who's that a problem for?

Sorry but is your modus operandi to pick apart every word of every one of S Griffin's posts?

Seriously. every.single.thread.

[Skam85]

Originally Posted by chunterer

But the reason Bottas IS there is because he has been a good no.2 driver. He has shown plenty of times that he is more than good enough to win regularly, but he also gets the word over the radio regularly which prevents him winning more.

Which is a shame because I've been re-watching the 2016 Season Review and I loved the Rosberg v Hamilton drama and back and forth.

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by Skam85

Sorry but is your modus operandi to pick apart every word of every one of S Griffin's posts?

Seriously. every.single.thread.

Not trying to pick apart, just trying to understand what the point(s) being made actually are so that conversation can be engaged with.

[steve nielsen]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

Who's that a problem for?

as long as he at least is right behind to Hamilton that is no problem at all for Mercedes

[Casper]

Just a few random thoughts.

The last time the Automotive industry took a similar hammering to this the manufacturers bailed out from F1. If this happens again the knock on will cause huge changes to everyone's plans for 2021. I think everything written about the driver changes for 2021 up to this point will be largely negated and that alone will be interesting in itself.

If any manufacturers pull out then those drivers will not have a job at all. A lot of ifs but consider this goes on for over 6 months even Ferrari would have to assess where they are at. Italy is in a worse position than China and there does not seem to be any signs of the virus spread slowing in Europe at all. If Mercedes withdraws along with Renault due to the financial health of the parent companies 2/3 of the engine supply just disappeared plus four cars off the grid and four drivers headed for the unemployment office.

I doubt that the F1 we now know will exist after this but I hope I am wrong, come to think about it this might force a re-think of the whole thing which won't be a bad thing. I don't think we have begun to see the knock on effects of this crisis and a lot of what changes will occur cannot be foreseen by anyone.

Doom and gloom or reality?