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Old 23 Feb 2021, 16:44 (Ref:4036463)   #1891
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Sodemo should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridSodemo should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridSodemo should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridSodemo should be qualifying in the top 3 on the grid
I think in terms of F1's direction the powers that be are really in an unenviable position in that sticking with the status quo is expensive and will start to lose relevance in the near future, but they can't go full electric for a number of reasons (1 I understand is contractual with Formula E) the others are more practical reasons, however they cant be seen to go back, because F1 never goes back and does U turns because that would seen to be a retrograde step, so I cant see V8s returning.

What I think might happen is that they will stick with the V6 formula but probably have a more conventional (cheaper) design with a not as expensive hybrid system.
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Old 23 Feb 2021, 16:56 (Ref:4036465)   #1892
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I think your post demonstrates the major issue. Whatever it does in an effort to be relevant it becomes irrelevant. Classic catch 22. Moving to a cheaper form of V6 PU suggests that it has been burning money for no good reason.

If we took away the need to be relevant and just concentrated on racing then the profile would be severely reduced. But since its profile is being eroded by the quest for relevance it may be that the next changes will be the last for the current business model.
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Old 23 Feb 2021, 20:12 (Ref:4036499)   #1893
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Originally Posted by Sodemo View Post
I think in terms of F1's direction the powers that be are really in an unenviable position in that sticking with the status quo is expensive and will start to lose relevance in the near future, but they can't go full electric for a number of reasons (1 I understand is contractual with Formula E) the others are more practical reasons, however they cant be seen to go back, because F1 never goes back and does U turns because that would seen to be a retrograde step, so I cant see V8s returning.

What I think might happen is that they will stick with the V6 formula but probably have a more conventional (cheaper) design with a not as expensive hybrid system.
I pretty much agree. I do think a simpler solution will be a bit of "going back", but it is VERY limited and still provides the ability to provide proper PR spin with respect to not being out of sync with the future of vehicle power.

I would like to be surprised by something like a NA V8 + KERS solution, but I am not holding my breath. Those who might think NA V12 is on the horizon, please be prepared to be disappointed.

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Old 23 Feb 2021, 22:36 (Ref:4036513)   #1894
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We canít keep going with the current engines. They havenít exactly bought in loads of manufacturers. They may be good PR, but thatís about the only good thing and only justification for keeping them. Weíll have to see what the next generation of engines bring to the table

Going back to KERS isnít a step forward necessarily, it was good back in the day, but itís probably not in the best interest of F1 and the FIA anymore. We hopefully wonít have the V6 hybrids anymore. Hopefully the next ones will be more powerful. No chance of a return to V12s, that is probably fantasy
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Old 24 Feb 2021, 07:24 (Ref:4036557)   #1895
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Casper should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridCasper should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
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Originally Posted by S griffin View Post
We canít keep going with the current engines. They havenít exactly bought in loads of manufacturers. They may be good PR, but thatís about the only good thing and only justification for keeping them. Weíll have to see what the next generation of engines bring to the table

Going back to KERS isnít a step forward necessarily, it was good back in the day, but itís probably not in the best interest of F1 and the FIA anymore. We hopefully wonít have the V6 hybrids anymore. Hopefully the next ones will be more powerful. No chance of a return to V12s, that is probably fantasy
Hopefully the next what will be more powerful? Why is more power needed, the current units can put out a lot more power if restrictions on use and fuel were to be lifted.
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Old 24 Feb 2021, 09:32 (Ref:4036573)   #1896
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P38 in workshop has a lot of promise if they can keep it on the circuit!
How about allowing new entrants provided they use crate engines from the main American manufacturers?V8's could run unsilenced and make lots of noise and very cheap.Compel existing entrants to stick with the current engines and see which technology wins.It might buy a bit of time while the FIA comes up with a scheme to deprive Formula E of the sole right to run single seat electric championships.Or maybe Liberty will invest in developing a sim racing app so that drivers can stay at home and appear to be racing at the classic circuits without much of a carbon footprint.
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Old 24 Feb 2021, 09:39 (Ref:4036577)   #1897
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Old 24 Feb 2021, 09:57 (Ref:4036583)   #1898
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Sodemo should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridSodemo should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridSodemo should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridSodemo should be qualifying in the top 3 on the grid
Well, in a sense, the ACO has "gone backwards" with the hypercar rules as the hybrid aspect of them is in no way as developed as it was with LMP1 (as far as I can understand). This has then resulted in quite a number of teams expressing interest in entering.
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Old 24 Feb 2021, 11:56 (Ref:4036613)   #1899
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Originally Posted by S griffin View Post
Hopefully the next ones will be more powerful. No chance of a return to V12s, that is probably fantasy
What would be the level of power you hope for?

The current AMG M10 EQ Power+ is estimated to produce upwards of 900HP, +160HP from KERS.

To compare this with previous engines (estimated figures):

The BMW M12 was claimed to be at 1,400HP in race trim, but only for up to 4 laps. In race trim this was circa. 800HP.

V8s, V10s and V12s have never really delivered much in excess of 800HP at best, and most were closer to 750HP.
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Old 25 Feb 2021, 20:22 (Ref:4036996)   #1900
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V8s, V10s and V12s have never really delivered much in excess of 800HP at best, and most were closer to 750HP.
The 2.4L Honda V8 produced 747hp despite being restricted to port-injection, therefore a more efficient direct-injected 3.2L V12 would produce well in excess of 995hp (3.2/2.4*747).

Reference:
https://www.racecar-engineering.com/...gine-revealed/

The figures for the 3.0 V10s in 2005 are generally considered to be around 950hp, so I'm not sure where you got a figure of 800hp from.

BMW quote the following figures:
2000 3.0 V10 810hp
2001 3.0 V10 880hp
2002 3.0 V10 895hp
2003 3.0 V10 940hp
2004 3.0 V10 950hp
2005 3.0 V10 >950hp (abandoned and Williams were supplied with 2004 engines again)
Source:
10 Years of BMW F1 Engines
by Mario Theissen, Markus Duesmann, et al.
BMW Group, Munich
http://sd-2.archive-host.com/membres...urs_BMW_F1.pdf

That's the figure 950hp for the 3.0 V10, straight from the horse's mouth.... A 3.2 V12 in 2025 should have little trouble producing >1000hp using the now permitted direct-injection and other techniques for improved efficiency.

It's only logical to remove the turbocharger and replace it by a doubling of displacement.

Do you really want a 1.0 V4 turbo hybrid Formula One car!? Red Bull Racing probably doesn't want that and probably not Ferrari either. Only Mercedes and Renault want that.

Last edited by V8 Fireworks; 25 Feb 2021 at 20:41.
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Old 25 Feb 2021, 20:39 (Ref:4036999)   #1901
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Recent history (~87 and newer) has shown that NA displacement kept being reduced to limit overall power. Generally speaking, bespoke NA F1 racing engines can produce quite a lot of power vs displacement. It would be quite easy to use modern knowledge/concepts to create quite powerful V8, V10 or V12 engines. Its mostly a question of displacement, RPM and requisite fuel and air flow.

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Old 25 Feb 2021, 20:47 (Ref:4037004)   #1902
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Since the previous generation of turbos were outlawed, the NA engines have been restricted, but have been still been pretty quick, despite the FIAís best efforts. Of course the engine rules changed quite a bit, but it was still good and then we KERS and hybrids come in. Will we see NAs come back? I suppose it could happen and could work too
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Old 25 Feb 2021, 20:52 (Ref:4037006)   #1903
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How about allowing new entrants provided they use crate engines from the main American manufacturers?
What, like these things?



Unfortunately American stock-block V8s don't sound right (and are impossibly heavy -- 195kg for a Coyote! over twice the weight of a F1 3.0 V10), flatplane V8s like a Ferrari or a good old Judd Zytek F3000 engine sound so much better. Of course the American stock-blocks are solid road car engines, especially for the price.

However, as V8 Supercars shows, as you soon as you take the $5000 stock-block and machine it extensively, fit roller-bearings, custom cams, custom pistons, dry-sump etc, that racing conversion process costs the best part of $150,000 anyway... Far more than the original cost of the stock engine block! You may as well have designed and built a proper racing engine with an optimised stressed-member block & gear-driven cams in the first place -- it would cost about the same, and be much lighter!

Last edited by V8 Fireworks; 25 Feb 2021 at 20:59.
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Old 25 Feb 2021, 21:18 (Ref:4037014)   #1904
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What would be the level of power you hope for?
I love how you actually expect an answer from this particular poster. That's not how they operate. It's not possible to keep up a steady 50-100 post per day flow if distracted by actual conversation .
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Old 26 Feb 2021, 09:24 (Ref:4037072)   #1905
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......... as V8 Supercars shows, as you soon as you take the $5000 stock-block and machine it extensively, fit roller-bearings, custom cams, custom pistons, dry-sump etc, that racing conversion process costs the best part of $150,000 anyway... Far more than the original cost of the stock engine block! You may as well have designed and built a proper racing engine with an optimised stressed-member block & gear-driven cams in the first place -- it would cost about the same, and be much lighter!
Interesting analogy, thanks. We see the same in Historics where a crate V8 engine comes in and machining etc. takes it up to £50 to 70k.

That said if your self designed stressed engine was only $150k then it makes sense to go that route as far as attracting teams would be concerned. Manufacturers would no doubt be put off though.
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