Category engine

[Juarez Jed]

Amazing that people still believe that Supras, Starions , Sierras, GTRS etc were outlawed & scrapheaped in 1993 and all these competitive manufacturers were turned away for the benefit of Falcon & Commodore v8s (and the DTM BMW).
GpA was dead by 1993. Killed by Formula Sierra and then the dominance of the Nissans. Supras & Starions & Alfa 75s were never competitive despite the welcome variety provided.
The world was going to 2 litre Supertourers and Australias car market was dominated by Falcons & Commodores.
V8 supercars served Australia well for 25 years .

[V8 Fireworks]

Originally Posted by bloxsidgemotorsport

I'd say that V8 Supercars was a totally new series in the 90's from the old group A series...

I have to disagree...




Plenty of entrants raced the same exact car they did before... Group 3A were just Group A with a lower rev limit, wings stuck on and (mostly) Chevrolet engines instead of Holden (apart from Mr. Perkins)!

There was every possibility to allow RWD Skylines & Sierras fitted with similar wings & similar wider tyres, with a suitable boost/weight limit to ensure parity between up to 5000cc NA and up to 2500cc turbo.

Originally Posted by Juarez Jed

The world was going to 2 litre Supertourers and Australias car market was dominated by Falcons & Commodores.
V8 supercars served Australia well for 25 years .

You are right about that to a point (obviously the Magna and Camry were also popular locally made sellers, and Mitsubishi and Toyota were NOT accommodated).

While there were two series, it made both series weaker... You often had only 10-12 professionally run cars at a ATCC meeting with the another 10 privateers. But as soon as ASTC fell over, the addition of quality teams like BJR and Nemo racing definitely helped the quality of the Supercars field.

However, in 1992 the aversion to adopting sensible exciting 2000cc regulations that accommodated a wide variety of manufacturers (up to 10 manufacturers at the peak) makes no sense to me. The sheer action, the more agile 1000kg mid-sized cars, the throaty induction roar -- 2000cc racing was marvellous stuff!

Anyhow, now the Falcon is dead and so is the Commodore (and Holden as well)...

It's a miracle Nissan came back given how they were treated, and it is a tall order to get BMW to come back!

[V8 Fireworks]

Anyway, long lost politics aside, the category engine (probably branded as Repco) is still mooted.

Supercars is considering introducing a category-branded engine for prospective manufacturers with the advent of Gen3.

The branded engine concept is akin to that seen in the British Touring Car Championship, which offers a TOCA-branded engine manufacturer by Swindon.

https://www.speedcafe.com/2020/10/15...gine-for-gen3/

It better not be a replica of the existing crossplane, pushrod engines using the existing control cam & other existing control engine parts -- how boring would that be!

Will it be:
- Flatplane or crossplane? (It better be flatplane!!)
- Pushrod 2-valve or DOHC 4-valve?
- If DOHC, will it be gear-driven like a proper racing engine, or chain/belt driven like the previous Nissan production-based engine?
- Iron block or alloy block?
- Direct-injected, port-injected or both?
- Will it even be a V8? It doesn't have to be a V8.

I can see the potential of going to someone like Judd or AER, and getting them to build a 4" bore x 3" stroke, iron-block, 2-valve pushrod, flatplane crank V8 as something that matches the other pushrod engines, yet still offers something a bit different so new manufacturers can differentiate themselves from the Ford and the Chevy engines?

A handful of drawings, some casting dies... How hard can it be?

Fans have some serious withdrawal syndrome from the lovely sound of the Mercedes and Volvo... The high-pitched wail that is so typical of a V8 (like this lovely Ferrari 458) absolutely needs to come back!!!

The existing Windsor and Aurora rather lack the high-pitched rasp which a V8 is supposed to make , like the good old Erebus Mercedes.

[one five five]

Originally Posted by Juarez Jed

Amazing that people still believe that Supras, Starions , Sierras, GTRS etc were outlawed & scrapheaped in 1993 and all these competitive manufacturers were turned away for the benefit of Falcon & Commodore v8s (and the DTM BMW).
GpA was dead by 1993. Killed by Formula Sierra and then the dominance of the Nissans. Supras & Starions & Alfa 75s were never competitive despite the welcome variety provided.
The world was going to 2 litre Supertourers and Australias car market was dominated by Falcons & Commodores.
V8 supercars served Australia well for 25 years .

We had two manufacturers tipping in money and WANTING to be involved, a way SHOULD have been found to include them in the outright class for 1993 and beyond, not just as an unwelcome field filler (in BMWs case) and tell one they weren’t wanted.

Also shows how little influence the teams association (TCI) has in the early 90s...

[Casper]

Hybrid will kill off the suffering corpse of SC, no one has the expertise or the money to run them. Straws and clutching spring to mind. A category supplied V8 with no option to build your own is the obvious answer, building & developing motors at any level is a financial nightmare....been there and done that and have the bank account to prove it.

[2 litre Touring Car Star]

Originally Posted by one five five

If the photo was “prior to the current series”, why does the current series claim all that history as it’s own?

You can’t have it both ways

When you really don't care, yes you can have it both ways.

[Casper]

Originally Posted by 2 litre Touring Car Star

When you really don't care, yes you can have it both ways.

I can't resist so I'll bite. What exactly does the nothing statement mean? Please reply in small words so I can understand. An answer of more than one complete sentence would be appreciated by all.

[Woolley]

Originally Posted by Casper

An answer of more than one complete sentence would be appreciated by all.

Not by all... Happy to leave it there and move on, to be frank.

[V8 Fireworks]

The heart of the (Gen 3) beast?


The OEM flatplane crankshaft from the Shelby GT350 Mustang. Ford part number GR3Z-6303-B ($1200 USD)

IIRC, the extra 0.2L is done via a bigger bore using spray-on cylinder liners which you wouldn't want in a racing engine, so the crank should be a direct fit into a standard Coyote engine with standard iron liners and give 5L swept capacity.

It would be a shame for all Gen 3 engines to be boring old lumpy crossplane V8s.
When they could otherwise sound like this: https://youtu.be/zkgG6OzGBEc?t=79

The suggestion for Gen 3 is alloy block engines, so could we be seeing 5L Voodoo-derived Coyote motors against 5L alloy block LS (or LT) motors? There are plenty of 5L LS engine variants (perhaps more so the iron-block pickup versions) which could donate their affordable OEM crankshafts.

A lower 600hp limit should allow the use of OE crank bearings and so on, without the big dollar needle roller bearings used in the current engines.

Would Supercars be keen on allowing direct injection (and hence the LT rather than the LS series Chevrolet)?

These two new motors would be a good opportunity to up the compression ratio rule (say to 11.5:1 or 12:1, to make it easier to make the power) and up the rev limit rule (say to 8000rpm) for better sound. Afterall the stock Voodoo V8 revs to 8200rpm in a road car, so that's easily within the capabilities of the motor & stock conrods/valvetrain.

[bloxsidgemotorsport]

Originally Posted by V8 Fireworks

The heart of the (Gen 3) beast?


The OEM flatplane crankshaft from the Shelby GT350 Mustang. Ford part number GR3Z-6303-B ($1200 USD)

IIRC, the extra 0.2L is done via a bigger bore using spray-on cylinder liners which you wouldn't want in a racing engine, so the crank should be a direct fit into a standard Coyote engine with standard iron liners and give 5L swept capacity.

It would be a shame for all Gen 3 engines to be boring old lumpy crossplane V8s.
When they could otherwise sound like this: https://youtu.be/zkgG6OzGBEc?t=79

The suggestion for Gen 3 is alloy block engines, so could we be seeing 5L Voodoo-derived Coyote motors against 5L alloy block LS (or LT) motors? There are plenty of 5L LS engine variants (perhaps more so the iron-block pickup versions) which could donate their affordable OEM crankshafts.

A lower 600hp limit should allow the use of OE crank bearings and so on, without the big dollar needle roller bearings used in the current engines.

Would Supercars be keen on allowing direct injection (and hence the LT rather than the LS series Chevrolet)?

These two new motors would be a good opportunity to up the compression ratio rule (say to 11.5:1 or 12:1, to make it easier to make the power) and up the rev limit rule (say to 8000rpm) for better sound. Afterall the stock Voodoo V8 revs to 8200rpm in a road car, so that's easily within the capabilities of the motor & stock conrods/valvetrain.

I like the idea of using the Coyote and LS engines for GEN3, but a cost factor will have to be considered.

All teams will need to buy new rolling cars, could they afford to also get rid of there engine inventory at the same time. Yes the current engines cost way to much for what they are, but a lot of teams already own a lot of spare equipment. Where would you sell them to? Would Super2 teams want to run the more affordable engines, especially consider Super2 already is struggling for entrants.

[V8 Fireworks]

Originally Posted by bloxsidgemotorsport

I like the idea of using the Coyote and LS engines for GEN3, but a cost factor will have to be considered.

The idea will be to increase rebuild intervals from 4,000 km to 8,000+km.

Coyote confirmed:

Ryan Story:

Right now there are still some things yet to confirm in terms of the specifications and the rules around Gen3, but the plan as it stands at the moment is for the Mustangs to have a Coyote engine driving it.

https://www.whichcar.com.au/news/mot...stang-supercar

General Motors engine likely to be DOHC rather than pushrod, so not an LS or LT (I'm not sure what! Corvette ZL1 will be DOHC but with twin-turbos and a hot vee layout):

Roland Dane:

It is perfectly possible with modern technology and modern engine architecture – double overhead cams not pushrods – to get to the level that would give us a power to weight ratio to still make our cars difficult to drive so you and I will struggle with them.

https://www.whichcar.com.au/news/mot...ules-explained

[Chuck.U.Farley]

Hey, you can get an ex NASCAR cup SB2 engine from the states for about 15k rebuilt and ready to run. 9000rpm and 800hp all day, the newer R07s make even more

[V8 Fireworks]

Uh oh, Seamer floating the idea of Ford's running a 5.0L and Chevys running a 6.2L.

Given 5.0L cranks are readily available for LS and LT engines, it would be a worry if they run as 6.2L motors... The LS & LT motors are restricted by the flow of the cylinder head, therefore they make much the same power as a 5.0L as a 6.2L, albeit with a lower level of torque that better matches the Ford's 5.0L.

IMO, running the (readily available) 5.0L OEM cranks in the Chevrolet engines would be the fairer solution.

https://www.speedcafe.com/2021/02/27...-parity-plans/

[S griffin]

Originally Posted by V8 Fireworks

Uh oh, Seamer floating the idea of Ford's running a 5.0L and Chevys running a 6.2L.

Given 5.0L cranks are readily available for LS and LT engines, it would be a worry if they run as 6.2L motors... The LS & LT motors are restricted by the flow of the cylinder head, therefore they make much the same power as a 5.0L as a 6.2L, albeit with a lower level of torque that better matches the Ford's 5.0L.

IMO, running the (readily available) 5.0L OEM cranks in the Chevrolet engines would be the fairer solution.

https://www.speedcafe.com/2021/02/27...-parity-plans/

This is gonna cause controversy if they don’t achieve the parity. If they both have 5.0L, then why don’t they restrict them both to that? Why let one and not the other have a potentially more powerful version? It’s slightly naive of them to think they could achieve parity just like that. It’s easier to keep all engines to the same litres

[Casper]

It will be interesting to see how they get the torque curves to match between an OHC motor and a two valve push rod motor. The final HP figure is relatively easy but I bet the torque curve isn't.