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Old 23 Feb 2021, 13:21 (Ref:4036433)   #856
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Unfortunately the article is subscription only.
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Old 23 Feb 2021, 14:11 (Ref:4036434)   #857
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Unfortunately the article is subscription only.
Would it be immoral of me to copy and paste the entire thing onto this thread?

Yes it probably would be. I won't do that, but I will give an overview. It takes a list of drivers who are contenders: Fangio, Moss, Clark, Stewart, Lauda, Prost, Senna, Schumacher and Hamilton (with a bit on Ascari, G Villeneuve and Alonso too), and then has a list of factors required to be 'the best driver of all time.' It then removes each driver from the list one by one because they are missing one of the factors. Only one driver remains, having all the factors required to be the Greatest of all Time, and therefore being considered the GOAT. That driver is Jackie Stewart.
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Old 23 Feb 2021, 14:18 (Ref:4036435)   #858
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So Kevin Turner didnít get that correct.
Must be in a minority of one!
Best his dad doesnít agree!
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Old 23 Feb 2021, 14:44 (Ref:4036441)   #859
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Originally Posted by BTCC frog View Post
Would it be immoral of me to copy and paste the entire thing onto this thread?

Yes it probably would be. I won't do that, but I will give an overview. It takes a list of drivers who are contenders: Fangio, Moss, Clark, Stewart, Lauda, Prost, Senna, Schumacher and Hamilton (with a bit on Ascari, G Villeneuve and Alonso too), and then has a list of factors required to be 'the best driver of all time.' It then removes each driver from the list one by one because they are missing one of the factors. Only one driver remains, having all the factors required to be the Greatest of all Time, and therefore being considered the GOAT. That driver is Jackie Stewart.

I wouldn't expect you to cut and paste but can you elaborate on the factors, if that's feasible?
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Old 23 Feb 2021, 15:38 (Ref:4036449)   #860
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...Only one driver remains, having all the factors required to be the Greatest of all Time, and therefore being considered the GOAT. That driver is Jackie Stewart.
i dont have Stewart in my top 5 even...although i suppose since 'advocacy' is a category i place some value in, then perhaps i should be giving much more credit to Jackie.

would also be curious to know what the factors used were.
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Old 23 Feb 2021, 16:05 (Ref:4036454)   #861
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Well this is why the others were eliminated from contention:

Fangio/Moss - the 50s were very uncompetitive compared to other eras, so it is hard to rate the best drivers from that era. But the relative lack of competition removed these two from contention (a bit harsh, maybe). Moss also never won a championship, of course.
Ascari - as he only really raced for four (short) seasons, there is not enough data for him to be the best.
Clark - only ever won in dominant cars. Never had a season where he excelled in an uncompetitive car (again, a bit harsh).
Lauda - wasn't the outright fastest driver of his era.
Villeneuve - never really challenged for a championship (apart from 1979, which he lost to his teammate), so it is unknown if he would have been able to win one.
Prost - again, wasn't the outright fastest of his era, and also struggled in the rain.
Senna/Schumacher - obviously, Suzuka 1990 and Jerez 1997 should rule out these two.
Alonso - spent too much of his career driving in the midfield. This was mainly his own fault, for being difficult in Ferrari and McLaren, and his return to McLaren was a bad decision.
Hamilton - considered the second best ever, but did have a horrible 2011 season, and made multiple mistakes in 2016. Stewart never made these mistakes.

I think that much information is fair without it becoming a form of piracy. It's no different to what you might explain to a friend. I think the reasons for 'punishing' Fangio, Clark and Hamilton are a bit harsh. I would consider those three, along with Stewart and Schumacher, the top five of all time. Schumacher is probably the fastest driver ever, the one who would win the championship if every driver in history raced each other in equal cars, but Jerez 1997 should exclude him from being the greatest of all time. Here's a mathematical viewpoint on this debate, which agrees with the Autosport article to an extent:

https://f1metrics.wordpress.com/2019...trics-top-100/
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Old 23 Feb 2021, 17:31 (Ref:4036470)   #862
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Originally Posted by BTCC frog View Post
Well this is why the others were eliminated from contention:

Fangio/Moss - the 50s were very uncompetitive compared to other eras, so it is hard to rate the best drivers from that era. But the relative lack of competition removed these two from contention (a bit harsh, maybe). Moss also never won a championship, of course.
Ascari - as he only really raced for four (short) seasons, there is not enough data for him to be the best.
Clark - only ever won in dominant cars. Never had a season where he excelled in an uncompetitive car (again, a bit harsh).
Lauda - wasn't the outright fastest driver of his era.
Villeneuve - never really challenged for a championship (apart from 1979, which he lost to his teammate), so it is unknown if he would have been able to win one.
Prost - again, wasn't the outright fastest of his era, and also struggled in the rain.
Senna/Schumacher - obviously, Suzuka 1990 and Jerez 1997 should rule out these two.
Alonso - spent too much of his career driving in the midfield. This was mainly his own fault, for being difficult in Ferrari and McLaren, and his return to McLaren was a bad decision.
Hamilton - considered the second best ever, but did have a horrible 2011 season, and made multiple mistakes in 2016. Stewart never made these mistakes.

I think that much information is fair without it becoming a form of piracy. It's no different to what you might explain to a friend. I think the reasons for 'punishing' Fangio, Clark and Hamilton are a bit harsh. I would consider those three, along with Stewart and Schumacher, the top five of all time. Schumacher is probably the fastest driver ever, the one who would win the championship if every driver in history raced each other in equal cars, but Jerez 1997 should exclude him from being the greatest of all time. Here's a mathematical viewpoint on this debate, which agrees with the Autosport article to an extent:

https://f1metrics.wordpress.com/2019...trics-top-100/
Actually think thatís a relatively fair assessment.

It always amuses me when people class fangio and Clark as the best drivers.....The factors mentioned never seem to come into peopleís arguments, so Iím glad Autosport have picked up on it for a change

Iíve always thought Stewart was underrated and doesnít often come into peopleís comsiderations
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Old 23 Feb 2021, 18:40 (Ref:4036485)   #863
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Itís worked!
Historically ,since Gregor Grant was editor, Autosport publish articles like this to get peopleís interest.
Best one was the Bermuda GP about 1961!
Brabham and Moss side by side at 210 mph
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Old 23 Feb 2021, 19:35 (Ref:4036495)   #864
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Determining the "best" is always a fun and entertaining exercise, but since there is no formal definition on how to judge, it is always very subjective. So everyone comes at it from a different angle. And most analysis are still quite subjective even when there is a specific process they are working through.

Even attempts via a quantitative approach still have to be based upon some set of criteria (race wins vs. peers, etc.) which is again subjective. Pick a slightly different set of criteria and you may get a different answer. Which criteria is the right ones? Again, subjective.

Generally that is why I don't get sucked into discussions like this because generally speaking there is no single or "right" answer.

Richard
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Old 24 Feb 2021, 02:58 (Ref:4036540)   #865
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Thatís a good article. Brings in all the aspects. Asserts a conclusion, but opens all arguments.

We should hang our heads in shame.
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Old 24 Feb 2021, 10:26 (Ref:4036591)   #866
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Originally Posted by BTCC frog View Post
Well this is why the others were eliminated from contention:

Fangio/Moss - the 50s were very uncompetitive compared to other eras, so it is hard to rate the best drivers from that era. But the relative lack of competition removed these two from contention (a bit harsh, maybe). Moss also never won a championship, of course.
Ascari - as he only really raced for four (short) seasons, there is not enough data for him to be the best.
Clark - only ever won in dominant cars. Never had a season where he excelled in an uncompetitive car (again, a bit harsh).
Lauda - wasn't the outright fastest driver of his era.
Villeneuve - never really challenged for a championship (apart from 1979, which he lost to his teammate), so it is unknown if he would have been able to win one.
Prost - again, wasn't the outright fastest of his era, and also struggled in the rain.
Senna/Schumacher - obviously, Suzuka 1990 and Jerez 1997 should rule out these two.
Alonso - spent too much of his career driving in the midfield. This was mainly his own fault, for being difficult in Ferrari and McLaren, and his return to McLaren was a bad decision.
Hamilton - considered the second best ever, but did have a horrible 2011 season, and made multiple mistakes in 2016. Stewart never made these mistakes.
Laughable. But that's what you get when young theatregoers make a career out of motorsport journalism.

If that's his opinion on Prost and Lauda, then there's a complete lack of knowledge and context of racing.

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Originally Posted by BTCC frog View Post
I think that much information is fair without it becoming a form of piracy. It's no different to what you might explain to a friend. I think the reasons for 'punishing' Fangio, Clark and Hamilton are a bit harsh. I would consider those three, along with Stewart and Schumacher, the top five of all time. Schumacher is probably the fastest driver ever, the one who would win the championship if every driver in history raced each other in equal cars, but Jerez 1997 should exclude him from being the greatest of all time. Here's a mathematical viewpoint on this debate, which agrees with the Autosport article to an extent:

https://f1metrics.wordpress.com/2019...trics-top-100/
Well, I suppose it is your opinion.
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Old 24 Feb 2021, 12:01 (Ref:4036615)   #867
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Schumacher is probably the fastest driver ever, the one who would win the championship if every driver in history raced each other in equal cars.

I'd say that was between him and Senna and everyone knows who my dosh would be on.....
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Old 24 Feb 2021, 12:02 (Ref:4036616)   #868
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Laughable. But that's what you get when young theatregoers make a career out of motorsport journalism.

If that's his opinion on Prost and Lauda, then there's a complete lack of knowledge and context of racing.

Well, I suppose it is your opinion.
Yes, it is. Exactly that. It's such a nuisance that other people have opinions....
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Old 24 Feb 2021, 12:05 (Ref:4036617)   #869
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Laughable. But that's what you get when young theatregoers make a career out of motorsport journalism.
It's always good to see a balance of argument, where one side puts forward their case based on Mathematical and Statistical insights - speaking from a position of authority with a PhD in Applied Mathematics, and the other puts forward their case based on their counterpart being a young theatregoer.
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Old 24 Feb 2021, 14:24 (Ref:4036660)   #870
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I have not been to a theatre in ages - does that automatically make my opinion fact?
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