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Old 6 Jan 2021, 11:13 (Ref:4027128)   #1
greenmachinets040
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LMH or LMDh ? Which one is better?

Hello Everyone!

I would like to open a thread like this to post infos, knowledge, opinion about the forthcoming new classes.

Is VAG right, that LMDh is the way to go?
Are Toyota and Peugeot completely wrong by choosing LMH instead?
Is it right to even out the performance of these two concepts?

Awaiting your posts!

Regards,
Miki
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Old 6 Jan 2021, 11:51 (Ref:4027138)   #2
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LMH is a proper class, has it on his own....LMDh is a generic product. The only reason for it is the cost efficiency....
I do hope as long an LMH is on the track no LMDh wins a single race.... as I do appreciate the efforts of Toyota, Peugeot or Glickenhaus.....
it is simply my opinion

and greetings to Topolya!

Last edited by Lutzvic; 6 Jan 2021 at 11:58. Reason: .
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Old 6 Jan 2021, 12:06 (Ref:4027140)   #3
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Originally Posted by Lutzvic View Post
LMH is a proper class, has it on his own....LMDh is a generic product. The only reason for it is the cost efficiency....
I do hope as long an LMH is on the track no LMDh wins a single race.... as I do appreciate the efforts of Toyota, Peugeot or Glickenhaus.....
it is simply my opinion

and greetings to Topolya!

Exactly the way I am thinking...on one side you have the Pioneers, like Toyota and Peugeot, and on the other side you see a biiig bunch of guys who want to win LM and all the races CHEAP and by the help of Eot and BoP...

I am rooting for Toyota a since long ago, hope they can be successful with the grandfathered Alpine LMP1 next year, but I fear, that they want a french marque to win the race...
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Old 6 Jan 2021, 12:07 (Ref:4027141)   #4
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and greetings to Topolya! [/QUOTE]

Thank you! Where are you from? Lehet magyarul is, csak nem tudom azt mennyire ertenek itt
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Old 6 Jan 2021, 13:38 (Ref:4027156)   #5
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I am not sure if you could say one is better than the other.
They both have advantages and disadvantages.

I think two of the main reasons Porsche chose LMDh over LMH:
* the possibility to race in WEC *and* IMSA. That's not guraranteed (yet?) for an LMH.
* it is far easier to let a privateer team run the car and it is far easier to sell this car to customers. Both Porsche and Audi have left the door open for customer cars. I see no such thing at Toyota or Peugeot.


I hope for close racing and if I get that it doesn't really matter to me which car wins and even less which type of car wins, even though I am a rather big Porsche fan.
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Old 6 Jan 2021, 14:10 (Ref:4027170)   #6
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Originally Posted by gert View Post
I am not sure if you could say one is better than the other.
They both have advantages and disadvantages.

I think two of the main reasons Porsche chose LMDh over LMH:
* the possibility to race in WEC *and* IMSA. That's not guraranteed (yet?) for an LMH.
* it is far easier to let a privateer team run the car and it is far easier to sell this car to customers. Both Porsche and Audi have left the door open for customer cars. I see no such thing at Toyota or Peugeot.


I hope for close racing and if I get that it doesn't really matter to me which car wins and even less which type of car wins, even though I am a rather big Porsche fan.
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Old 6 Jan 2021, 15:04 (Ref:4027184)   #7
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Originally Posted by gert View Post
I am not sure if you could say one is better than the other.
They both have advantages and disadvantages.

I think two of the main reasons Porsche chose LMDh over LMH:
* the possibility to race in WEC *and* IMSA. That's not guraranteed (yet?) for an LMH.
* it is far easier to let a privateer team run the car and it is far easier to sell this car to customers. Both Porsche and Audi have left the door open for customer cars. I see no such thing at Toyota or Peugeot.


I hope for close racing and if I get that it doesn't really matter to me which car wins and even less which type of car wins, even though I am a rather big Porsche fan.
Of course you can not decide which is better, I would like to have a discussion about these two car types in terms of comparability, possible pace etc.

I think it is fair enough to say, that LMH should be considered as the " big boys" and for LMDh I would say "customer cars or a far cousine of LMH".

As a top tier car manufacturer, as the VAG group, just to "belong to" the "big guys" I would have sacrificed one marque (Audi or Porsche) for a LMH project..

Or in fact - and that might seam harsh - I would relegate LMDh to the LMP2 class. LMH should be able to do 3:20 at LM and let the DPi and LMDh prototypes compete for LMP2 Triumph in LM and overall triumph at IMSA.

For me it is simply not acceptable, that you create and run a far more expensive project with more room for technology and improvement and you even these cars out with cheaper series production sportscars that have a hybrid system of 50 KW power.
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Old 6 Jan 2021, 15:28 (Ref:4027187)   #8
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LMDh is a dagger to the heart for purists, but if it brings close racing, multiple manufacturers and competitive privateers, I can assure you that the vast majority of the 250,000 attending the only race that really matters in top class sportscar racing will not care one jot that beneath the meat, many of the animals share the same skeleton.

Looking forward to seeing the hypercars though - one step closer to the homologation specials of yesteryear.

As for the BoP aspect - more recently we had EoT, and ever since the race began, we've had regulations aimed at curtailing the best cars and giving a leg up to those politicking hard enough to the ACO. For me, it is simply a formalisation of that process, but I appreciate that's a minority view on here!

Whichever the solution, these slower, cumbersome inbred cousins will be an improvement on 24 hours of two cars pounding round aimlessly, spectacular though they may have been. I'm so excited for 2023!
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Old 6 Jan 2021, 15:36 (Ref:4027189)   #9
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dagger to the heart of the purists?

id consider myself a purist....but i love the concept of LMDh.

i remember Le Mans from the 70s through to the 90s, there was lots of sharing chassis, engine combos, customer cars from large manufacturers and not only was the racing pure, it was great!

If you look at some of the best cars in history, they werent made by a major manufacturer, they were made by a small chassis constructor and had a manufacturer engine installed. the 333SP, Lola Aston, Panoz GTR/LMP1, Peugoets etc etc...LMDh is no different

what, as a purist i do dislike is the EOT element, it has blighted sportscar racing since hybrid came in...and to a lesser extent when diesels first appeared in the mid 2000s.

I just hope they can come up with a sensible EOT/BOP, going into races knowing a car cant win because of a handicap is not fun

Last edited by ascarracinguk; 6 Jan 2021 at 15:43.
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Old 6 Jan 2021, 15:42 (Ref:4027192)   #10
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[QUOTE=Gingers4Justice;4027187]
As for the BoP aspect - more recently we had EoT, and ever since the race began, we've had regulations aimed at curtailing the best cars and giving a leg up to those politicking hard enough to the ACO. For me, it is simply a formalisation of that process, but I appreciate that's a minority view on here!

Suprisingly for me, as I share your view, Jim Glickenhaus just assured us in this forum, that he is expecting a fair BoP.....
I really do hope he is right!
As the Rebs are not there anymore I will cheer for his cars.
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Old 6 Jan 2021, 15:49 (Ref:4027195)   #11
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[QUOTE=Lutzvic;4027192]
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Originally Posted by Gingers4Justice View Post
As for the BoP aspect - more recently we had EoT, and ever since the race began, we've had regulations aimed at curtailing the best cars and giving a leg up to those politicking hard enough to the ACO. For me, it is simply a formalisation of that process, but I appreciate that's a minority view on here!

Suprisingly for me, as I share your view, Jim Glickenhaus just assured us in this forum, that he is expecting a fair BoP.....
I really do hope he is right!
As the Rebs are not there anymore I will cheer for his cars.
What about Alpine? who cheers for them? The whole ACO I guess
They are a serious contender, unless Toyota addresses a big punch onto the desk of ACO..
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Old 6 Jan 2021, 15:52 (Ref:4027197)   #12
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TBH i understand and dont mind BOP in customer or Pro/ AM racing like Blancpain GT where you have several manufactuers that just supply cars to paying customers, or if they brought it into LMP2.

That way, the businessmen/ women of this world can be assured the product they buy, can be sucessful so its down to their talent and the team.

This shouldnt be brought into Pro/ Manufacturer racing like GTE or LMP1/LMH, it should be all about building to a single set of rules and going at it on track
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Old 6 Jan 2021, 19:14 (Ref:4027259)   #13
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[QUOTE=Lutzvic;4027192]
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Originally Posted by Gingers4Justice View Post
As for the BoP aspect - more recently we had EoT, and ever since the race began, we've had regulations aimed at curtailing the best cars and giving a leg up to those politicking hard enough to the ACO. For me, it is simply a formalisation of that process, but I appreciate that's a minority view on here!

Suprisingly for me, as I share your view, Jim Glickenhaus just assured us in this forum, that he is expecting a fair BoP.....
I really do hope he is right!
As the Rebs are not there anymore I will cheer for his cars.
BoP is in the DNA of sportscar racing but recently there are big car makers who do want to win because of the invested money. Either you let them enter the race with the possibility of the upper hand, or they will leave sooner or later.
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Old 9 Jan 2021, 10:30 (Ref:4027811)   #14
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I am not a big fan of LMH as the risk is to have few cars on the grid (Only Peugeot and Toyota with a Hybrid system) and the cost involved in their program will be significant. Smaller manufacturer like Glickenhaus is in too but only with an ICE system that is, in my opinion, not the future. I will be very surprise if we will have other manufacturer in this class.

LMDh is for me a better option as cheaper and accessible to privateers that should be competitive for the overall win. I guess that the public doesn't really care about the technology of the engine, who build the tub but like to hear that there is a bit of green technology in the car, to have close races and a brand that is meaning something for them. If you make a comparison between the 24 Hours of Daytona and the 24 Hours of le Mans for a race leader changes point of view, it is just mad. Last year, at Le mans we had 14 leader changes but only the 2 Toyota cars and at Daytona we had 53 leader changes between 7 cars. May be some of you will recall but during the 80s, at Le Mans, we had 1/3 of the grid with Porsche (Joest, Brun, Kremer, Lloyd, ...) and we had great race. So if the new LMDh could be the "962s" of the 2020s and the LMH the Sauber, Jags, Nissan of the 2020s, I will be happy. We will have nice races and the endurance races will come back where we would like them to be. But for that, they need to be properly Bopped. If not, we will come where we are today and we will have no chance to have the LMH in IMSA.
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