The Biggest Shark in the tank...

[Jordi]

You see, Russfeld? You're again not debating the point of the thread...

[Russfeld]

I dont see anyone else debating either.I see a lot of hyperbole and 'us vs them' posts

[jcclausen]

Speaking of wearing thin........

[Lee Janotta]

What is racing?

Racing is one determined, skillful driver doing everything in his power to put his car ahead of the driver in front of him, and that other driver doing everything in his power to keep his opponent behind him.

Racing is what raises a driver's hearbeat, narrows his vision, and slows his perception of time... Nothing exists but the track, the drivers, and the cars... The rest of the world simply fades away.

Racing is watching the driver in front of you for any sign of weakness... Throwing your car across the track to cut off the driver behind you... Pushing your car that little bit further... Conscious thought disappears, you're working on instinct alone... You feel everything your car's doing, every tiny undulation of the road surface, searching for that tiny advantage...

And then it happens. You come out of a slow corner heading into a fast, winding, flat-out section of track... You get on the throttle just a little bit early, _barely_ keep your car on the track, using every bit of the outside curb... You've got a run on him.

You've got to make your decision NOW: How much is that position worth? For a real racer, there's no decision to make... Nothing else matters but the battle. You draft off your opponent through those flat-out corners... Get up as close as you can... Then just as you're about to touch, you dive off the racing line, and pull alongside of his car... You go side by side into the braking zone... Who's going to get on the brakes first? You wait as long as you possibly can, lock up a wheel trying desperatly to stay on the track... Then you dive back towards the racing line, cutting off the inside-out re-pass...

No need for a big advantage in pace. No need for the other guy to make a mistake. You just beat him on skill, courage, and nothing else. Next lap, the battle will probably start all over again. But in this moment, you couldn't possibly imagine a feeling better than this outside of your bedroom.

And it's something that's sorely lacking in today's drivers, who're hampered even further by cars that negate much of their skill by covering up the failings of other drivers through things like traction control and automatic gearboxes... Or cars so dependant on downforce that drafting off the car in front is more a handicap than an advantage... Or circuits which simply leave you no opportunity to set up a pass.

[Flatspot]

Nice post Lee

[Lee Janotta]

Thanks.

I think it was inspired by all the video of Jean Alesi I've been watching the last 24 hours.

[Russfeld]

Originally posted by Lee Janotta


And it's something that's sorely lacking in today's drivers, who're hampered even further by cars that negate much of their skill by covering up the failings of other drivers through things like traction control and automatic gearboxes... Or cars so dependant on downforce that drafting off the car in front is more a handicap than an advantage... Or circuits which simply leave you no opportunity to set up a pass.

I think thats a bit unfair to modern drivers. Sure they are aids, but really only to guys like you and me. The lap times barely changed with traction control. The best drivers right foot is traction control. These guys havent missed a shift since they started racing. They dont make mistakes, with or without all the gadgetry

Id blame the speed of the tracks. Its an epidemic affect every form of road racing. The cars are so fast the straights become too short for drafting to play out, and the braking zones too short to have a classic braking duel.

[Lee Janotta]

Lap times have barely changed Russ, but overtaking has almost disappeared because you _don't_ use your right foot for traction control anymore.

Imagine you're a driver who's best asset was his skill in using just a little bit of throttle-on oversteer to come out of a slow corner faster than anybody else. Now traction control tells you exactly how fast you can put the power to the ground, and everyone else does it just as fast as you. You're going to tell me that won't just about ruin your career? It's a skill you had that other drivers didn't, but now liberalization of the rules package has taken away a crucial component of your driving style.

If you think that drafting and braking zones are too short, how is ther FIA helping this at all? They killed Hockenheim, the track that defined the slipstreaming-outbraking school of passing. If anything, based on your premise, we needs tracks with _longer_ sections taken flat-out.

[Russfeld]

What overtaking? There wasnt much overtaking before grooves, there wasnt much before the reintroduction of aids. The only reason there's been a change in any overtaking stats is beacuse Juan Pablo Montoya absolutely refuses to wait for a pitstop to overtake.

[Lee Janotta]

Uhm... Sorry Russ, but you're just sorely mistaken there. On-track passing was a _lot_ more prevalent in the DFV era than it is today.

You might be amazed, but some people actually find overtaking through a pitstop actually feels rather hollow and unfulfilling.

Y'know, it's fine if you enjoy seeing records broken and cars flying around in a blindingly quick procession, and that you think it's exciting when races are won through technical superiority, or strategy...

Just don't look at us funny or call us names when we expect something different.

[Tailwind]

Lee...very well done!

Russ, what in your opinion is a long enough straight? In terms I might understand...is the long straight at Denver long enough for drafting? Then was the "Mile wide" turn 5 too short of a breaking zone?

[Tailwind]

OOps...Sorry. I just reread the title of this thread "Biggest shark in the tank" and realized that I am no where near that topic.

[Liz]

Lee, thanks for reassuring me that I'm not out of my mind when I remember Gilles driving sideways through a corner at Mosport and beating Mario through that corner by less than a coat of paint, without deliberately ramming him off the track. Prof. Watkins said that Gilles could drive so close to him that his heart would stop, yet not a millimeter too close for safety. We used to look forward to particular corners to see particular drivers go through them. And when I was at Monza in 1999, the loudest cheers were for Jean Alesi sliding the Sauber through the (former) Variente just after the first turn, standing the car on two wheels as he used every possible inch of the track. Alesi was in a Sauber, mind you.

And Russfeld, have you ever seen the famous footage of Gilles and Rene Arnoux at Dijon? That is what I call racing! Not a pre-arranged photo finish written in somebody's contract last November. Which segues nicely into the original topic, which is that Bernie's "vision" is the reverse of everything we at Champ Car Central really care about, and I would just as soon not see him take over and do what Tony George could not.

[JohnSSC]

If Schumi reads this forum I bet he lays awake at night wishing he had half the power that he is implied to have through some of these thinly-veiled references to him!

There should be a disclaimer on these threads that reads: "Any thread, no matter what the topic, will contain at least one anti-Schumi message - more if we can squeeze 'em in!

The point I THINK Russfeld is making and that many are missing in their haste to find an opportunity to take a swipe at Schumi is that over time, the style of racing has EVOLVED. Yes, it is different now: very fast, more techno etc. Just like in Senna/Mansell etc era it was much faster and very techno compared to the Clark/Hill/Ginther etc era.

Now I thought that this thread was about Bernie being the biggest shark in the tank. Could we all re-direct our focus that way? That is why I started reading this thread in the first place. To satisfy the other urge, perhaps the mods can create a topic called: "Schumi. Why we don't like him." Then everyone can post away or avoid it!

[f1manoz]

How the hell did TGF get into the CART forum in the first place?

Bugger off TGF!

[Russfeld]

Originally posted by Lee Janotta
Uhm... Sorry Russ, but you're just sorely mistaken there. On-track passing was a _lot_ more prevalent in the DFV era than it is today.

heh, nice response. You said "but overtaking has almost disappeared because you _don't_ use your right foot for traction control anymore." And I pointed out overtaking wasnt very often even without electronic aids. You cant just now say "oh but back in 1973 there was!" Grooved tires, narrow wheelbases, electronic aids, etc have done very little to affect the amount of overtaking on track. There isnt much more overtaking in CART either, so why is this an "F1 problem" ?


Tailwind about long enough straights, something like Old-Hock/Monza/Indy mainstraight. The speeds are so high you need several seconds for the pass to play out. If you're covering the straight in like 3 seconds or whatever there's not enough time to get the draft, gain some momentum, and pull out. And you need a really good braking zone, not the 150metres from imminent destruction kind.

[Liz]

Well, the two things go hand in hand, at least IMO. Those innovations, so-called, that Bernie has ramrodded through into F1 have created today's version of the "show" which is not real racing; it is a "show" (to use M. Villeneuve's word) or "entertainment".

And it is this, plus the outrageously high prices, the lack of driver/paddock access to anyone with incomes under seven figures, and the general disdain for fans, plus the homogenizing of the drivers and dumbing down of the racing, that I personally do not want to see as the future of Champ Cars.

And TGF is only one side of the Bernie-Approved-Driver (BAD). Kimi, who had a personality before being promoted to McLaren and now is a woodenhead, is the other.

[Russfeld]

no... F1 has been like this for a while. You cant blame it on Bernie for starters because he doesnt even make the rules. He's in charge of the commercial side, this is where you criticise Max Mosley and call him a Nazi.

I agree with you on high prices, but i like the paddock setup. As someone who has worked on the team side I enjoy the lack of zoo feeling when we need to get work done. Mainly because the majority of fans dont understand when is an an appropriate time to approach drivers mechanics or team members.

Kimi has allways been very very dry, even before F1.

[Lee Janotta]

Well Russ, it seems I misread your post. Actually, the DFV won it's last championship in '82, so it's been more recent than '73 that we've had that engine being competitive.

But anyways... We can look at real examples from that '94 thru '97 period you're focusing on... This is just what I can think of without going through a bunch of videos or race reports:

Estoril '96: Jacques overtakes Michael around the outside of the final turn at Estoril.

Hockenheim '97: Berger overtakes Fisichella for the win.

Hungary '96: Damon Hill overtakes Schumacher going into turn 1.

Suzuka '97: Irvine overtakes Villeneuve.

Monaco '96: Panis overtakes Brundle, Hakkinen, and Irvine to win a true classic.

Belgium '95: Schumacher manages to block Hill while on slicks in the wet... One of the German's best moments, in my opinion, but the contact was over the line and unacceptable. But look how close they were able to race!

Nurburgring '95: Schumacher overtakes Alesi.

Please note I've only mentioned moves that led directly to a victory....

Also, before driver aids came back, we had that great wheel-banging battle at Monaco between Schumacher and Wurz...

I'm more upset about the grooved tires, narrow chassis, and over-reliance on downforce than I am about the driver aids, actually... If we look at the wide chassis, we can see some _really_ insane battles. Everything between Prost and Senna while they were at McLaren, Senna holding off Prost AND Schumacher at Silverstone in '93... Now _that_ was racing... Senna's opening lap at Donnington the same year...

The current cars are far too twitchy, and too unpredictable... Giving drivers very little warning when they're about to lose control... As such, drivers lack the confidence to get the cars out of shape and hope they can bring them back.

In Brazil this year we saw clearly just how hard it is to follow a car through fast corners... You lose all the downforce on your front wing, have to back off, and can't set up a pass...

We'd see _much_ better racing if aerodynamic elements were further limited, diffusers were banned and a spec piece was added to the back of the undertray to make sure no one tried to find a loophole... And we widened the cars back out to their '97 widths, and brought back slicks... The cars would be more controllable at the limit, but have a lower handling limit overall.

[Russfeld]

And we've also had Juan on Schumacher at Brazil, the battle of Austria with driver aids, JPM on Trulli at Imola JPMvsKimi at Hungary and Germany with full aids, etc etc.

The aids are all but meaningless. They help Yoong avoid being even slower, but with or without TC Kimi MIchael and Juan are going to do the same lap times.

The aero turbulence thing isnt that big a problem imo. Granted it prevents guys on lighter fuel load from passing someone on a one stop, but even conditions it doesnt make much of a difference. You should check out a British Formula Ford race sometime. Really skinny tires, absolutely no downforce, and about as much overtaking as F1. Likewise British Formula 3, or European Formula 3000.

As it stands right now for whatever reason Toyota ATlantics puts on the best OW road racing in the world.

The more compettiive the grid becomes, the less likely there is to be passing. F3000 has almost no technology in it, and really really strict tech and testing rules. 1 second off pole will sometimes put you 15th on the grid. No pitstops. But its probably the most processional of all racing series because everyone's running on the limit at the same speed so there's no room to overtake.

[Lee Janotta]

Atlantics? If that's the best show, that's _really_ sad...

The Star Mazda series is a better show, actually... Those guys really drive hard... Throw the cars around the corners on skinny spec tires... It's extremely close, extremely competitive, and there's plenty of passing.

And admittedly, those have all been good battles that you've mentioned. But we've also seen some real racers who were _never_ the same after the grooved tires came in.

You've shot down every suggestion anyone's come up with, Russ... So what the hell's your brilliant idea to keep even the hard-core fans from turning off F1?

[Jay]

Originally posted by Russfeld
As it stands right now for whatever reason Toyota ATlantics puts on the best OW road racing in the world.

WOW! I agree with you! Although, it does have close competition from Formula Ford for entertainment, but that's a little slow for my viewing preferences. Still, FF1600 is a great series nonetheless. But from a spectator's point of view, Atlantics is definately the most entertaining.

Also, from what I've been told those cars are a heck of a lot of fun to drive too!

[Russfeld]

Lee Janotta, nothing. I dont see anything wrong with F1. Truly competitive road racing classes, and this gets more true the higher up the ladder you go, rarely have good racing. Like ive said before i watch road racing for excellent driving, and ovals for excellent racing. I dont think CART or F1 should dumb themselves down or create some sort of artificial show to keep the casual fan around.

I like racing. Exciting races are better than boring races, but I still enjoy watching boring races.