Rally Seeding

TrapezeArtist · 28 Mar 2015, 22:59 (Ref:3521215)

Has the MSA taken leave of their senses? Apparently a recent decision by the MSA has determined that there will no longer be any waivers of R24.1.4 (that's the rule that says all cars must be seeded in order of anticipated performance).

It was very noticeable on the Wyedean this year that the amount of road damage done by the 65 1400s running at the head of the field was more than matched by just the first three WRC cars, and it just got worse as more uber-powerful 4wd cars continued to rip up the surface. So in future, thanks to the "wisdom" of the MSA all the 1400 cars will be obliged to crash through the potholes left by the WRCs and other faster cars. This will surely mean more damage and less fun for all those competitors.

Personally, I would like to see full reverse seeding employed on rallies (at least, loose-surface rallies). This would tend to concentrate the most damaging cars towards the last runners, allowing more cars to enjoy the roads in a good state. It would also give spectators a growing sense of climax as more cars pass and they get continually faster. Provided the seeding was done correctly, there would be no more likelihood of faster cars catching slower ones than with conventional seeding.

flagwaver · 29 Mar 2015, 09:34 (Ref:3521368)

MSA haven't actually changed anything all they have done is not permit any more waivers regarding running orders. Rally's always used to run in seeded order.

The reasoning is that if the fastest cars run first more spectators will be in place when the course car spectator control cars go through a stage.

Rallying has to change in the UK (The FIA also have concerns worldwide) or it will end up just taking place on circuits. Just read the last two additions of Motorsport News, if you are in any doubt.

chunder · 29 Mar 2015, 10:08 (Ref:3521383)

The MSA have already destroyed the national chamionship in this country and are uterly panicked into running into a corner due to the legal issues bought about by the incidents in Scotland. So a course car goes through and sees a marshal and some arrows and 20 fans, at that point in time it looks safe, what about the next 2 hours?

Yet they still stupidly think closed road rallying in this country is possible? Sort the stuff out on your doorstep first you silly people.

Putting fans on single venues in pens, stopping spectators doing good work in helping crews out of tight spots and also warning incoming crews of danger is a real help isnt it MSA? Fans ahve been the real marshals of rallying for decades in some cases, yet because we dont wear a bib we are the first to sufer when bad thigs happen. I agree some snappers deserve to be shamed, but doing it in a paper only highlights the issue and brings it to the attention of some snob sitting in his ivory tower counting his ARDS money.

Not only have they utterly crucufied the UK's rally championships, they are now planning on removing a point of access for 1400 runners that has been so successful it has made that series into the premier gravel UK series, they are bowing down to the rich few who are probably *****ing an moaning about getting their cars dirty.

Sooner someone comes in and takes on the MSA the better as right now they are clueless, backwards thinking and only in it for the money.

TrapezeArtist · 29 Mar 2015, 11:35 (Ref:3521415)

Quote:

Originally Posted by flagwaver

MSA haven't actually changed anything all they have done is not permit any more waivers regarding running orders. Rally's always used to run in seeded order.

I appreciate that no rule has been changed, but the effect is still the same.

Quote:

Originally Posted by flagwaver

The reasoning is that if the fastest cars run first more spectators will be in place when the course car spectator control cars go through a stage.

OK, that's an explanation of the MSA reasoning, maybe. I accept that spectators can be a problem but there are other ways of solving it. With current (well, recently past) BTRDA system of running 1400s first, it would be easy to run the spectator control car through the stage a second time between the 1400s and the WRCs. And with reverse seeding, it could maybe go through every 50 or 60 cars.

flagwaver · 29 Mar 2015, 13:30 (Ref:3521440)

With only one safety delegate how are they supposed to run the "safety" car through between classes when other stages are running?

Not ideal I know, but we really have to change and more importantly be seen to change or we can say goodbye to rallying in the forests. Whilst it is easy to slag off the MSA they are not the driving force with this. You have the Scottish Report and the Forestry Commission (FC) both looking for changes. In the case of the FC we have this year to make moves in the right direction or that is it. Believe me this is no idle threat.

chunder · 29 Mar 2015, 13:43 (Ref:3521443)

You simply have to be proactive with things like this. MSA are petrified and will try anything to comply instead of coming up with reasonable solutions.

Simply saying "put fans in pens" is a firefighting solution not a fair one. If yu do that there will be no fans and ralying will be a closed sport, and then you lose fnas, interest etc.

You cannot have safe sports, especially with cars, and this is all a reaction to a situation that was mainly a result of people not listening to marshals and also being a bit naieve themselves.

MSA are petrified of lawyers and should instead be coming up with arguments and vaild points ot keep, not just panicking

Alex Langheck · 29 Mar 2015, 14:46 (Ref:3521464)

The seeding issue is the answer to a different question. The MSA seem desperate to be seen to be doing anything; whether that is the right thing, is another matter.

I was stunned when I read the MSA letter about the possible ban of the sport. Why? One injury, or worse, a fatality is one too many. However, the sport has a pretty good safety record, yet we're told it's under threat. Something doesn't add up. The FC aren't happy? So the MSA do as they are requested? Only 1 of the recent fatalities has happened in FC land, the others were on Tarmac events. Bizarre thinking.
I've often thought that MSA are a huge hindrance to rallying in the UK - they'd really prefer everyone circuit racing.

I now presume that the 1400 runners who used to run at the front on BTRDA field will be delighted to run down the field in rutted, ruined stages. Marvellous thinking.
So, we will get 150 cars all run together? That means people staying in the one position for 3-4 hours? The gapsbetween the 1400's, Historics and main field allowed people to move.

I can see why they've done this, but not sure it's the answer.

chunder · 29 Mar 2015, 16:05 (Ref:3521506)

The stupid thing is

Some of the 1400 cars can finish in the top 20. Beating 4wd cars, rwd Silver Star cars etc. So how are you going to seed them into a full field?

It might be like the old days when you are seeded sort of in a class system, so perhaps when McRae was in a Nova he was seeded in the 20's, and the top 1600 was maybe 15. So yoou seed the top 1400 cars in the bottom end of the 20's.

MSA really have no clue about rallying, they have utterly destroyed the British chanpionship, a fact they should NEVER be forgiven for when even in the early 00's it was a place where Finns and many others came to learn their craft.

Countries all over the world are able to have decent national rally series and BTRDA is now the top level forest series.

When i started watching there were two above it, British, and National.

That is the MSA's legacy for rallying.

flagwaver · 29 Mar 2015, 17:05 (Ref:3521523)

Yes and as with rally cross things have moved on.

Maybe one day you will post something positive, not the continual, things were better in the past.

chunder · 29 Mar 2015, 20:49 (Ref:3521593)

If you can think of anything positive to say about rallying in the UK at the moment then please tell me.

You people look at the username, rarely the post. And it's been that way for years, read between the lines.

Historic rallying is getting bigger, off road events are getting bigger, they use forests too you know? The 1400 class has provided the sport with a huge pool of previously un rallied cars, drivers. and been a massive success. They are positives, and one of them is about to be pushed to its limit.

Negatives, endless bickering between hugely rich men in expensive cars about illegal pacenotes. A governing body who are panicking about lawsuits, the loss of two national championships.

If you want to find a positive in that fine. We are sill producing good drivers, but they are HAVING to rally abroad from the start of their career! That is an abject failure any way you look at it of the MSA and nothing to do with things being better in years past.

Simple ignorance is what it is.

**BertMk2** · 30 Mar 2015, 08:53 (Ref:3521774)