Real Cars

[Fred Scatley]

A few photos from VSCC meeting

[Fred Scatley]

Another

[Fred Scatley]

Final one today

[Fred Scatley]

Oops forgot photo

[Fred Scatley]

This one seems to have been missed

[DAVID PATERSON]

Fred, good on you for posting all these old pics that many people will enjoy, but I wonder if it irks anyone else as much as me to hear the term "real cars" used to describe what is simply one man's favourite form of car. I don't know what happens in the U.K., but here in Australia, many people who like one particular form of car, be it touring, classic, sports, racing, vintage, whatever, insist on calling their own favourites real cars and thereby denigrating every other form of car by suggesting, somewhat ridiculously, that all other cars are somehow unreal.

I'm not trying to have a go at you Fred and I hope it doesn't sound like I am, I am simply trying to generate a discussion on this topic to see if anyone else shares my view, or if they think I'm wrong, I'd love to know the "how and why."

[TimD]

Well, I can understand where both of you are coming from. And I would class the machines above as "real cars" in that they have steel or aluminium bodywork, and a gate gear selector, just like the Rover that's sitting in my driveway.

That's not to say that I don't appreciate a Lotus Elite, or a Subaru Impreza WRC, but I can relate far better to something that is built on the same design principles as a machine I drive from day to day, however far removed it might be in reality.

On the pictures themselves, I can recognise just about all of the cars in the images, but I'm having trouble dating it. I would imagine it's Silverstone, mid-1970s, but I've got (I think) all the VSCC's race programmes from that era, and I can't get the race numbers to match up. It can't be before 1971, as the Birdcage Maserati is carrying a 1971 registration, but it is presumably before the Woodcote chicane became a fixed entity.

[Peter Mallett]

It's the old Club circuit where you drove head on towards the grandstand until turning sharp right onto the start finish straight.

[Andrew Kitson]

Great pics Fred. I reckon it's sometime between 1974 - '78 at Silverstone at the greatly missed Woodcote on the short circuit as Peter suggests. I say that because of the catch fencing that came in around then and the fact that a BAF ad is in the background. British Air Ferries was owned by Rupert Keegan's father Mike and he started sponsoring his son's racing and advertising around this time. Is that possibly Charlie Lucas or Willie Green in the 250F? Frank Lockhart's Rover too that he still races I believe. Also a nice shot of the Costin bodied Lister(?) that Justin Law has been racing lately. Am I right on these ( yes real!) cars TimD?

[Andrew Kitson]

No, a re-think on the date! Upon further inspection, some of the shots are going past the old pits that had the raised pit road. The pits were rebuilt and opened by H.R.H The Duke of Edinburgh at the April 1975 International Trophy so it is probably 1974.

[TimD]

You're right on the money with the cars, Andrew.

The only thing I can add to the identification is that I note Frank Lockhart's Rover is up for sale at the moment, FIA papers and all.

Sad to say it looks as though Frank has had to hang up the crash-hat at last.

[Andrew Kitson]

Oh that would be sad but it had to come one day. I have been going racing all my life ( My parents told me my first race meeting was at Brands, boxing day 1959 at 6 months old - Jim Clark had his first single seater race that day! Pity I don't remember it..). Frank Lockhart and his Rover have been around as long as I can remember and way before my time too. I remember my father pointing him out to me when I was very young, saying that he had raced the same car for so long - I did the same with my son's at a VSCC meeting at Silverstone a couple of years ago. He seemed delighted that my youngsters wanted his autograph. I will miss seeing him hussle the old Rover through Woodcote and hope the new owner races it as regularly as Frank did.

[Fred Scatley]

Yes the ones at Woodcote were taken on 24/7/76 and the othe two on the pit straight in 1971. I call ERA's MG,s Morgans Connoughts HRG's Etc "REAL CARS"

[TimD]

Aha! That's what threw me - two different occasions.

In which case, the #4 car, the A-Type Connaught alongside the Rover, is driven by Alan Cottam. The 250F is Pat Lindsay's and I suspect that the Cooper Bristol in the top picture is carrying #2. If so, it's Simon Phillips'.

[Andrew Kitson]

TimD - Pat Lindsay's 250F - is that the same chassis that he crashed heavily at the Thruxton chicane in I think 1969? It was a dark blue colour then. I remember it vividly. The car was in a very sorry state and he took down several yards of armco.

[TimD]

That's the one. I've a feeling you'll hate me for this, but I am fairly certain I attended that meeting in my pushchair.

Not that I remember the accident, mark you!

[TimD]

Here we go.

From Motor Sport, October 1969:

"The Historic Racing Cars Scratch Race was a sad affair, because the Hon. Patrick Lindsay jumped the start in his 250F Maserati, was passed by Neil Corner's Aston Martin DBR4 on lap 2 and then went too fast into the chicane and up the escape road on lap 4 after Crabbe (250F) had passed him. The car hit the crash barriers backwards and they sprang open, then closed on the car, which was wrecked. Lindsay was trapped in the cockpit for a long time, and suffered a broken ankle..."

[TimD]

Now, if anyone has a copy of Autosport September 18th 1969, and a functioning scanner (I have the former but not the latter), page 2 has an absolutely spectacular "moment of impact" of the Maserati.

As soon as Bluebottle and Mrs Bluebottle come over for dinner, I shall ply them with good wine, and hopefully being the geniuses they are, they'll be able to get my scanner running....

[Andrew Kitson]

I've also got a video tape of that race / incident. It is a pre-recorded tape 'Vintage Racing Greats 1969 & 1972' by PP video. I bought it in the book/video shop at Brands I think and I know the Autosport photo you have mentioned. I'll scan it too.

[TimD]

Of course! I forgot about the tape of "Vintage Variations". I must have another look at that sometime.

I love those old Roscoe club racing films, with their delightful commentary and frightful music tracks. Almost a subject for a whole new thread on their own, I think...!

[Andrew Kitson]

Yes, let's start one! I have 'Motor Racing 60s style 1961 & 62', '1963 & 64', '1960 & 67', '70s style 70 & 71', the above mentioned vintage tape, Classic saloon car racing 60s style ( Fantastic!...1968. Falcons v. Gardner's Alan Mann Escort - season review) and Production saloons 73,74 & 75 which is the Avon Tour of Britain review.
I wish there was something on 1965/66 and more 68/69 but alas no luck with my searches.

[Fred Scatley]

Does anybody remember the Sound Stories available on 45EPs and I think 33LPs? I dug up the one I have of the 1959 British GP and there are interviews with Mike Hawthorn and Peter Collins, the best bit is the commentry though.

[Andrew Kitson]

Don't remember those Fred but I have a 33LP called 'The Exciting Racing Sounds of Grand Prix'.
It was recorded in 1966 and has interviews with Phil & Graham Hill and John Frankenheimer who made the 'Grand Prix' film along with recordings of the F1 engines of the day.
Has anyone heard the CD that came along with the Nick Mason book "Into the Red"? It is worth getting this just for the recording of the V16 BRM alone! Various cars from Nick's collection were recorded, some doing racing starts, some racing past and a few in-car recordings. The quality is excellent as one would expect from Nick having been in the music recording business for so long. Think I'll go and dig it out now to get my fix of that BRM!!

[Fred Scatley]

This is the cover of the Recording