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Old 10 Jul 2014, 10:29 (Ref:3432438)   #1
Al Weyman
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So just how does modern technology improve old engine BHP

I am curious, I keep reading time and time again about mega horse power engine outputs for 'Legal' Group 1 cars and FIA Apps K cars and the fact its not cheating but down to 'Modern Technology'. I personally question this and someone posted recently somewhere that someone or other was coming out in the Classic with a 'Legal' Apps K 450bhp 289ci Ford V8 engine!

How is this possible and keeping within FIA's criteria for such an engine? The Ford 289 small block back in the day would have produced as a high performance factory option in a road car 275bhp (with factory Tri Y headers) so lets say with blue printing and a careful build give it the benefit of doubt another 50bhp say 325. The cylinder heads on this engine never favoured high bhp outputs so unless they were changed I cannot see how 450bhp can ever be achieved by modern technology especially with pressed steel rockers and a flat tappet camshaft presumable to an homologated specification also I presume using the standard ignition system, standard cast crankshaft, rods and probably factory spec forged pistons and a 650cfm carb.

So my question is what precisely has modern technology changed that can produce these figures in what is meant to be a reproduction of a period engine without bending the rules?
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Old 10 Jul 2014, 11:17 (Ref:3432446)   #2
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One thing that could increase the power of the engine is if modern technology/materials allow an increase in revs. (As BHP is basically torque multiplied by engine speed. If there's not a huge drop off of torque at the top end, more RPM would also mean more BHP).
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Old 10 Jul 2014, 11:22 (Ref:3432449)   #3
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Deafened by silence Al. Personally I think looking at the std items in your last line of the middle paragraph is not the way to look at it.
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Old 10 Jul 2014, 11:46 (Ref:3432458)   #4
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I would hazard a guess that the biggest improvements come from increasing volumetric efficiency, gained by spending hours on flow bench tests - more air equals bigger bang? Then design a cam to optimize the new found breathing capabilities.
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Old 10 Jul 2014, 12:50 (Ref:3432477)   #5
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Al, have you ever read FIA app K?
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Old 10 Jul 2014, 14:16 (Ref:3432500)   #6
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Read bits of it yes. I just don't understand the virtual doubling of BHP.
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Old 10 Jul 2014, 14:21 (Ref:3432502)   #7
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Just a quick search found this.

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It has to be a period 289, and roller rockers aren’t allowed for Appendix K, though the standard rockers break at 7000rpm so you need to invest £1500 in a hardened set. The standard Hi-Po cast exhaust manifolds must be retained but the exhaust is free from there back. Top-running cars enjoy over 400bhp, but it costs – Steve Smith says the best motors run out at £18,000
I'm also curious why you cannot use the Mustang HiPo option Try Y headers.
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Old 10 Jul 2014, 15:51 (Ref:3432520)   #8
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Originally Posted by Al Weyman View Post
I am curious, I keep reading time and time again about mega horse power engine outputs for 'Legal' Group 1 cars and FIA Apps K cars and the fact its not cheating but down to 'Modern Technology'. I personally question this and someone posted recently somewhere that someone or other was coming out in the Classic with a 'Legal' Apps K 450bhp 289ci Ford V8 engine!

How is this possible and keeping within FIA's criteria for such an engine? The Ford 289 small block back in the day would have produced as a high performance factory option in a road car 275bhp (with factory Tri Y headers) so lets say with blue printing and a careful build give it the benefit of doubt another 50bhp say 325. The cylinder heads on this engine never favoured high bhp outputs so unless they were changed I cannot see how 450bhp can ever be achieved by modern technology especially with pressed steel rockers and a flat tappet camshaft presumable to an homologated specification also I presume using the standard ignition system, standard cast crankshaft, rods and probably factory spec forged pistons and a 650cfm carb.

So my question is what precisely has modern technology changed that can produce these figures in what is meant to be a reproduction of a period engine without bending the rules?
Essentially yes..Mainly materials technology…tuning engines remains the same more fuel, more air, bigger bang..If regs limit you to flat tappets, solid lifters etc etc then using better materials will allow power to be built up to a higher rev range higher revs, more power..

My old banger is a 302 block with 289 hi po heads, usual bolt on goodies and comp cams roller tip rockers..This will give about 285hp at the flywheel at no more than a 6-6500 safe rev limit..

I would guess that the modern incarnations will have fully forged billet rods and cranks and the capability of 8000 rpm…More power..

All down to money..My old knacker is on its last crank grind at 30 thou, cost me £800 before a re-fresh build…Its all down to what the rules say are allowable…most regs allow new parts so original block, new crank and new rods and you are half way there i would say.

There are always those who forget the fun bit and must win at all costs..

points makes Pratts as an old dear friend used to say.

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Old 10 Jul 2014, 16:42 (Ref:3432528)   #9
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Can the camshaft profile be changed within the rules? If not I fail to see why you would need to rev much over 6500rpm.
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Old 10 Jul 2014, 17:03 (Ref:3432531)   #10
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I didn't think you could use a 302 block in a Pre 66 FIA car, I thought it has to be a 289 block?
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Old 10 Jul 2014, 17:21 (Ref:3432539)   #11
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I didn't think you could use a 302 block in a Pre 66 FIA car, I thought it has to be a 289 block?
My car isn't being run in Fia Events. Its built to have fun with by me over the last 10 years so will be slow.
Do you want to show me the differences between a 302 and 289 block

But yes in Pre 66 the block has to be Pre 66. There was talk of relaxing these rules because you can't find many useable pre 66 blocks anymore..You can only really bore to 40 thou so finding one is pretty hard these days. Finding a HIPo block even harder.

I also wouldn't get mixed up between FiA and Appendix K. I don't think any appendix K cars will be running more than 300hp ??

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Old 10 Jul 2014, 17:57 (Ref:3432549)   #12
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Al, I know where you read that 450bhp legal engine bit - have you noticed the post has now been edited and the power output removed

Don't get me started on sbf appK engines
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Old 10 Jul 2014, 19:11 (Ref:3432571)   #13
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My car isn't being run in Fia Events. Its built to have fun with by me over the last 10 years so will be slow.
Do you want to show me the differences between a 302 and 289 block
I understand that the 302 is a stronger bottom end and that some clever people have allegedly developed ways of disguising a 302 block as a 289 block

The scarcity of 289 blocks is I believe why they allow 302 blocks in the US (which is what my car has )

Please can you explain the difference between an Appendix K and and FIA car, as I'm confused, thanks.
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Old 10 Jul 2014, 19:29 (Ref:3432576)   #14
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I understand that the 302 is a stronger bottom end and that some clever people have allegedly developed ways of disguising a 302 block as a 289 block

The scarcity of 289 blocks is I believe why they allow 302 blocks in the US (which is what my car has )

Please can you explain the difference between an Appendix K and and FIA car, as I'm confused, thanks.
Blocks are all the same Cliff. There is no real difference between a 289 block and 302 Block. The piston skirt on a 302 is very slightly longer. The Hi Po 289 block has beefier mains than all 302 variants except the Mexico block which has similar size main castings if a bit rougher to look at….There is absolutely no performance advantage to be gained from using a 302 block over a Hipo 289 Block..unless of course you are stroking. HiPo 289 were some of the best constructed blocks out of ford

When I refer to appendix K I mean the regs attached to appendix K in swinging 60's rather than some of the hi brow Fia events where very special cars are ran plus Fia in Europe…I am far from knowledgable in this area though.

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Old 10 Jul 2014, 20:53 (Ref:3432593)   #15
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Al, go pay Mark at Mathwall £35k plus VAT and you will find out.
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Old 10 Jul 2014, 21:01 (Ref:3432598)   #16
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Al, go pay Mark at Mathwall £35k plus VAT and you will find out.


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Old 10 Jul 2014, 21:16 (Ref:3432602)   #17
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Blocks are all the same Cliff. There is no real difference between a 289 block and 302 Block. The piston skirt on a 302 is very slightly longer. The Hi Po 289 block has beefier mains than all 302 variants except the Mexico block which has similar size main castings if a bit rougher to look at….There is absolutely no performance advantage to be gained from using a 302 block over a Hipo 289 Block..unless of course you are stroking. HiPo 289 were some of the best constructed blocks out of ford

When I refer to appendix K I mean the regs attached to appendix K in swinging 60's rather than some of the hi brow Fia events where very special cars are ran plus Fia in Europe…I am far from knowledgable in this area though.

N.
Thanks for the explanation on both fronts N, much appreciated.
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Old 10 Jul 2014, 21:19 (Ref:3432605)   #18
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Why would I do that when I could build one for a fraction of that sticking to the FIA rules, bet it wouldnt ever be up the sharp end though!
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Old 11 Jul 2014, 06:16 (Ref:3432683)   #19
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Why would I do that when I could build one for a fraction of that sticking to the FIA rules, bet it wouldnt ever be up the sharp end though!
Agreed..
I like to fettle my own engines. I am more than happy with the 290 or so HP I get…I think I would just be a gibbering heap at the back of the garages If I had 400hp In my Griffy
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Old 11 Jul 2014, 07:35 (Ref:3432709)   #20
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Why would I do that when I could build one for a fraction of that sticking to the FIA rules
depends if you want to win or not. I've no doubt the £35k engines also stick to the rules. Getting close to the front is cheap. Continually setting the pace costs money.

mind you, often these fabled ultra-powerful engines are just that: fabled or gossip. Well set up cars, well-practiced drivers, more talent, call it what you will. It's easier to cry "he's got more power than me" than it is "he's better than me".

Going back to your original point, oils and fuels are more efficient than they were in period as well, leading to an increase in power across the board and the more powerful an engine the more dramatic the increase in number terms. E.g. Shell used to claim an extra 10% efficiency from Optimax.
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Old 11 Jul 2014, 08:44 (Ref:3432720)   #21
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I have to disagree on the fuels as my memory stretches back to when you could buy genuine full leaded five star at the pumps I think 105 Octane so I doubt the green mixes today are up to that. The oils will make no difference as you have to run an Ash based old technology oil in a flat tappet old style engine with ball rockers you cannot run a thin synthetic unless you run roller cams and rockers or you will wipe those components out.

So where does that leave us? A 35k (42k with vat!!) LEGAL engine pumping out in excess of 400bhp to 450bhp (original pre edited claim) on a single carb and cast manifolds, I think not!

Hey I just had a thought, back in the day the Yanks Holy Grail was 1 bhp per Cubic Inch (i.e. on the 289 Ford 289bhp, respectable) so what is it now £1000 per 10 bhp lol!

Last edited by Al Weyman; 11 Jul 2014 at 08:50.
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Old 11 Jul 2014, 09:03 (Ref:3432723)   #22
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depends if you want to win or not. I've no doubt the £35k engines also stick to the rules. Getting close to the front is cheap. Continually setting the pace costs money.
But how long do they stay there? In one series I do, the front runners spend silly amounts of money on engines but they don't stay there long as they seem to have more DNFs or miss races because their ultra powerful engines don't last long.
I've had my first major hiccup in 5 seasons with my cheapish engine this year as a camshaft broke but then that's probably down to the fact it's over 40years old and it's been back ground.
Last season I think if I'd have taken the trouble to do most races in my series I could have easily been series champion just by completing races as not one of the front runners managed to complete many races over the year.
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Old 11 Jul 2014, 09:35 (Ref:3432736)   #23
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Obviously a lot of it is down to how you interpret the rules..............

The rules say ''use stock/standard component'' - most of us would go to the spares shop and buy standard replacement part, those big money pointy end of the grid guys go get something made that looks like the standard part but performs 300% better (ie the rockers on a sbf - £75 for set of standard or £1500 for the race version)

Or they just modify the original part so much its difficult to claim its original, but it is based on the original so therefore must be legal, right?
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Old 11 Jul 2014, 10:02 (Ref:3432744)   #24
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.

mind you, often these fabled ultra-powerful engines are just that: fabled or gossip. Well set up cars, well-practiced drivers, more talent, call it what you will. It's easier to cry "he's got more power than me" than it is "he's better than me".
This is the truth!
Until you have the mega buck engine on a dyno that you can put your own engine on treat the hp figures as marketing spin.
If you've built it carefully and have really good heads and plumbing they will not make more than 5% more than you, guaranteed!
Look at top speed down the straight!
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Old 11 Jul 2014, 11:34 (Ref:3432770)   #25
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As I previously mentioned a better understanding of fluid dynamics and being able to quantify head flow must have made a huge difference compared to what was understood and available to most in the 60's. A man in his shed can build an engine very competently but cannot obtain the knowledge and understanding of fluid dynamics and the equipment to measure it easily as most people haven't got the time/ability to devote to it or the finances to buy the equipment required or in my case both :-(.
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