[FIA GT] FIA GT: Maserati testing - Fiorano

[JAG]

Masarati will build 25 road cars by early next year, plus 6 to 10 race cars.

The BIG difference between GT1 and 'Super GTS' is that GT1 only required 1 car to be built for homologation. Therefore you had totally new cars arriving each year, which privateers could not afford to upgrade to.

'Super GTS' require 25 road cars. Even a big manufactuer like Masarati/Ferrari cannot build 25 'new' cars each year.
The current Masarati should have a shelf life similar to the C5R, Viper GTS-R etc. which would mean teams could afford to buy and run them.

As I said a GT1 class will only happen in 2 years or so, and only if the LMP1 class fails to develop. Masarati/Ferrari do want to compete for overall wins so a GT1 class seems enevitable to me, but only when more' Supercars' arrive.

Remember the Viper was originally a GT1 car but went into GT2 when the high tech GT1 cars arrive.

Judging by the interest in the LMES LMP1 class I think we can be very optimistic with regards to new LMP1 cars arriving.

As for LMP2 cars, the regs are much more like LMP675 than invisaged.

The Courage C65 can run virtually unchanged, with only a smaller rear wing and other detail changes. The Engine restrictors will allow 540BHP quite easily. If you consider the DBA was over 720KG its quite clear the LMP2 cars will be quick, particularly on twisty circuits.

Saleen, you cannot underestimate the difference 350KG makes to the performance of a race car. I would expect the top LMP2 cars to be quicker everwhere than the GTS cars, with the possible exception of LM.

[JAG]

Oh and Saleen, you seem to be missing my point with regards to what a genuine road car is.

The 575/Murcielago have 1000's of road car versions. Likewise the C5.

These cars are then taken and modified for racing as the GTS regs allow. The manufactuers do not have to build 575GTC road cars and such like.

The Masarati on the other hand was desinged as a race car, as the Saleen was, then put into road car production.

Eventually there may well be 100's of Maserati road cars built, but this does not change the fact that it is a purpose built race car.

[JAG]

Saleen, JMB initiated the 360 GT project with Michelotto which was eventually backed officially by Ferrari. JMB were also the first team with the 575GTC and will be first with the customer Maerati.

They undoutedly have close links with Ferrari.

[SALEEN S7R]

Jag, again the Maserati and the Saleen S7R and cars like them do not belong in a "super GTS" category, and thats why Ratel is allowing them to both race in GT/GTS of FIA GT/LMES, oh and by the way can u prove that there are Thousands of Murcielago's? Hundreds I could believe, but not thousands, as for the Ferrari 575 Id be suprised if theres more than 100 of these cars in the world at the moment, and as I said the "Corvette C5R" NOT the Corvette C5, I think u will find it extremely hard to find a Corvette C5R, if not impossible, a Corvette C5 yes that is easy enough by the C5R is signifcantly differnt from it.

Jag please tell me, where did u read that the GT1 class will be revived if the LMP 1 class fails? I read Autosport every week and I saw the same interview with Ratel that u did, and there was no mention of a revival of the GT1 class, only that GTS cars may be in with a shout of overall race wins. Remember, in its day the Viper and Porsche GT2 would have also been considered supercars, the Viper did after all race in GT1 for a short period.

The Maserati is just the next generation of Supercars, its not a GT1 car just a new Supercar, like the Viper was. Oh and yes Im aware that JMB have strong links with Ferrari, but please do tell me where does it say that JMB are a Ferrari backed team? What factory support do they receive? They certainly dont recieve any help on the driver side of things.

The Maserati is a Supercar yes, but it was built for the road first, then converted for the track, unless u can prove otherwise, which u cant.

[917Addicted]

hum, do you think a lambo murcielago is comparable to the enz.... maserati?? give us a break please

the lambo has an alluminium chassis (which is not very good) while the maserati is carbon-fibre state-of-the-art.

And freisinger is a factory backed-team, as well as jmb (or alex job for that matter). Factory-backed, imho is almost as same as factory team (especially if you consider that they will be the ones who first have the new car and that the'll be lent the factory drivers)

[SALEEN S7R]

Freisinger and JMB may well recieve Ferrari and Porsche technical support, but they are defintly NOT the same as a full blown Factory team. JMB do not get lent any Ferrari factory drivers. Oh and as far as Im aware Ortelli isnt a factory Porsche driver, although Marc Leib is. AJR are more of a Porsche factory team than Freisinger.

And whilst Im aware the Murcielago isnt a carbon fibre chasis car it is extremely good in terms of downforce, remember FIA GT at Monza, Tom Kristensen remarked just how good it was, the only problem being the engine, but that should be sorted out in good time, cars dont have to be Carbon Fibre chasis to be competitve u know.

[BSchneiderFan]

Originally posted by chunterer
I'm still torn between giving approval to what is clearly a fabulous racing sports car or dismissing it as another over the top build excercise in order to try and wipe the floor with everything else.

A manufacturer trying the beat the competition? Insane!

[JAG]

I'm 100% sure there are 1000's (or at least will be in time Murcielagos and 575s).

These are mainstream models, unlike the Maserati.

There must be 100 575s in the UK alone.

Remember even the Enzo is made in numbers over 300.
As for JMB it is not a full works car but gets significant help from Ferrari/Maserati.

They are afterall first in line for the 575GTC and Maserati.

As for the C5R this is a bit of a contensious issue which I'm not sure what the exact facts are.

But from what I've read it is based on the C5, abeit stretched to the letter of the regs. It wouldn't be racing if it was not within the regs.

As for Ratels vision for GT's, he has indeed said he would like to see GTS cars competing for overall wins. In order to make this happen GTS cars would need extreme modifications to the regs, with more power, much less weight, and more downforce.

In another interview he has said he could see the Maserati, Saleen, Zonda etc. in GT1, Aston Martin, 575, Viper in GT2 and the 911 and 360 in GT3.

This does not mean the 575 could not be run in GT1 for overall wins of course. But, IMO, Ferrari (575) and Aston (DB9) both want to race there genuine road cars in GT racing and so are more likly to stick with GTS.

Remember the LMES has beeen set up to promote protoype racing, and Ratel and the ACO have said they are in discussions to consider what to do IF these prototypes do not arrive. IF they do not arrive GT1 or upgraded GTS is an option for them.

[nkh]

http://www.italiaspeed.com/2004/moto...m/test_04.html

"Meanwhile, Ferrari-Maserati customer racing division boss Claudio Berro, has moved to squash speculation that the new car will run away with the FIA GT series, insisting that the MCC, which is drawn from the 6.0-litre V12 Ferrari Enzo supercar, has been developed on a relatively modest budget. He insisted that it is very close to the road version, of which around 25 are expected to be built to satisfy homogation requirements, and will cost little more to run than the Ferrari 575GTC. Around 10 ten of the race ready MCC's will be built during the course of the year."

So they'll build more than 25 road versions, and, since it's going to be cheaper than the Enzo I'd assume they'll build more MCC's than the 399(?) Enzos.

[nkh]

Here's a bit more info about the road version, suggesting it'll be made in the same numbers as the Enzo

http://www.italiaspeed.com/news_2002...maserati6000gt

[JAG]

It will be made in relatively large numbers. The difference is the Maserati was designed as a race car first and then made into a road car.

I've no problem with this as long as its performance is closely monitered.

[SALEEN S7R]

Jag one thing I dont agree with, u said earlier today that for GTS cars to be competitve for overall race wins they would need signicant changes, well no not really. Cars like the SALEEN S7R and Ferrari 575 and Ferrari 550s I think this year will be doing 3:49 minute lap times in qualifying, the Prodrive Ferrari was doing 3:53s in 2002 before the 10% power reduction, and then in 2003 it still did 3:53's, mainly because of areodynamic improvements, this year the restrictors are back to the 2002 sizes for GTS and that 10% power combined with the downforce of the 2003 car I think should get them doing 3:49's.

To make GTS cars competive is relativly simple, lower the minimum weight limit to 1000kg, or 900kg if 900kg is possible, then give the GTS cars 16 inch tyres, not the current 14 inch tyres. Power wise the top GTS cars have more than the average LMP 900 machine, and was faster than a lot of them in the speed traps in 2003, so a power boost isnt really neccarcy. If these changes were implemented we could well see the top GTS cars of today lapping around 3:42 I think, and cars like the new Maserati maybe 3:38s at best.

[Cadete]

Saleen, the last sentence of your post is what worries me and, I presume, JAG, and I quote:

If these changes were implemented we could well see the top GTS cars of today lapping around 3:42 I think, and cars like the new Maserati maybe 3:38s at best.

The Maserati will compete in the GTS class, as such they should not have such a big difference from the other GTS cars. If it performs like you supose it will, then it is because it is a car on a different level from the others and belongs to a different class. No matter how much development Maserati put into the car, I doubt it will gain 5 seconds on the 575, for example, on the same regulations.

[SALEEN S7R]

Why should that be doubted Cadete? Maserati are a full blown factory effort, big recources. In normal championship races there wont be much differnce I think, mainly because at Spa 24hrs there are no ballast or air restrictor penalties for any of the cars, except for the Invitation cars. And no it wont be 5 seconds a lap faster, but 4 seconds as I said is likely.

Either way, expect the GTS pole time for this years LM, probably from a 575 to be around a 3:49. The following year who knows, but with the regulations the way that they are perhaps a high 3:45. This kind of performance gap has been done before in GTS for example, so its possible it could happen again.

2000 Pole time GTS, #51 Oreca Viper 3:56.327
2001 Pole time GTS, #60 Saleen S7R 3:52.849

[Cadete]

I don't doubt that the pole time for GTS will get down, what I don't agree with is that the Maserati should have a 4 second lead on the other cars in the same year using the same regulations. I'm not saying it can't happen, I'm saying it shouldn't happen, because that would prove that the Maserati is a car on a different class.

But we're all talking in the air in here, aren't we? The car hasn't raced yet, and the point of whether it is a road car turned into a race car or a full bred race car depends on whether you see this as a racing version of the Enzo or of the new car yet to arrive... Let's wait and see what will happen when this one hits the track alongside the (other ) Ferraris, the Lambos and the Listers.

[Mal]

Originally posted by Cadete
I don't doubt that the pole time for GTS will get down, what I don't agree with is that the Maserati should have a 4 second lead on the other cars in the same year using the same regulations. I'm not saying it can't happen, I'm saying it shouldn't happen, because that would prove that the Maserati is a car on a different class.

But we're all talking in the air in here, aren't we? The car hasn't raced yet, and the point of whether it is a road car turned into a race car or a full bred race car depends on whether you see this as a racing version of the Enzo or of the new car yet to arrive... Let's wait and see what will happen when this one hits the track alongside the (other ) Ferraris, the Lambos and the Listers.

Dont forget that LeMans is over 8 miles long. Thats nearly four times many circuits, so four seconds would equate to 1 second on a conventional circuit which is not ridiculous or impossible for a newly developed car to be that much faster.

[Fab]

Two extra pics on the frenchforum Le Mans Racing...

[bernard b]

seen first test of it on french TV this morning: beautiful and a nice noise

can't wait to see it in it's colours

[PascaLM]

"born for racing" at LM too, I hope.

[SALEEN S7R]

In 2005 the car will be LM bound, but first it will contest the worlds greatest endurance race. The Proximus 24 hours of Spa-Francorchamps.

[JAG]

'If' GTS cars are down to 1000 or even 900KG, plus more power, bigger tires etc. they will be in a different class to current cars, i.e. GT1.

A car like the 575GTC could not get down to 900KG and so purpose built race cars would have to compete in GT1 such as the Maserati.

As for the performance of the new GTS cars, I very much doubt that they would challenge even a slower LMP1 car.

I say again you cannot underestimate the difference 200KG and big downforce makes to the performance of a car.

Plus of course a purpose built race car has much lower drag and ease of use for mechanics than a 'road based' GTS car.

[917Addicted]

Originally posted by SALEEN S7R
Why should that be doubted Cadete? Maserati are a full blown factory effort, big recources.

thank you for your insight saleen

and if you think the new maserati will do 3.38 at LM, you must be crazy

I bet the fastest gts will never go under 3.45 (unless they take the restrictors out). And I don't think it's possible to run at 1000kg with the actual gts (not the maserati ofcourse).

[JAG]

One of the main driving forces for 'prototype' GT1 cars was to get down to the minimun weight limit. Even the original 911 GT1 and F1 GTRs were well over 1000KGs.

[SALEEN S7R]

917 Addicted, read what I said again properly. I said that if the GTS class cars rules were changed and they were allowed to be lowered to 1000kg and have 16 inch tyres, cars such as the Maserati could lap 3:38's. Ive also said that with the rules the way that they are now the fastest I think a GTS car would go, even the Maserati is a 3:45.

And Jag, if the rule changes for GTS cars were implemented that I suggested the cars would still be in the GTS class, just there would have been rule changes. Im pretty sure that all the current GTS cars could get down to 1000kg.

People seem to forget that at places like LM the GTS cars are faster than some of the LMP 1 machinery and as quick as a lot of them. Jag the Maserati isnt a purpose built race car, its a supercar. Ratel and the FIA/ACO appear to agree too, just because u dont dosent mean that its not a Supercar, and after all its what Ratel FIA/ACO think that counts in the end, not ours.

[JAG]

Saleen, to get down to 1000KG's, you need a sophisticated road car, or a homologation special such as the Maserati. If manufactuers are going for overall wins, development accelerates and eventually all manufactuers will be running homologation specials.

Road going GTS cars would morph into prototypes and the 575s, DB9s of this world would be forced out.

In order to keep the GTS class stable, eventually the likes of the Maserati will be moved to a GT1 type class.

The Maserati is a race car that has been homologated by the production of a road car, like the 911 GT1.

It is a suttle difference from the Enzo, but significant.