March 782

[allenbrown]

Thanks Fabian. Could you share some pictures of your car in its Can-Am bodywork. I'm confident I could then tell you its Can-Am history. Do you know who ran it as a Can-Am car?

I'd be happy to post the pictures for you if that's easier. I'm at allen@oldracingcars.com.

Allen

[dfr]

We are also looking for a bodywork, new or used for the car. My customer will restore the car to his original condition (Toleman bodywork and colors). If you know something about a bodywork. We also must fit a BMW M12 engine on place of the Hart engine. Someone know when the Bmw engine was replaced by the Hart ?
Thanks,

Fabian

[driftwood]

toleman cars ran bmw in rad dougalls car in 78 henton had hart
in 79 Rad dougal had a hart not BMW
then he had his rt2 hart car from mid season
henton had rt2 all season
i can supply u with new body and i may have used side pods here

[allenbrown]

Here is Fabian's picture:



It's a Cicale body of course but presumably a new one or a newly-restored one as it lacks any signs of being used (number, decals, mirrors). David Locke ran a yellow Cicale-March in the latter years of the series but that's not this car as his was an 832. Locke's earlier Cicale-bodied car was a 77B. This is more likely to be Dick Guider's original Marguey but I thought that had been rebuilt on a 80A chassis.

To identify this positively, I'll need a bit more to go on. Does the car have any log books or any documentation from its time in the US?

Allen

[dfr]

We dont have any idee about the story of the car terefore I'm looking for information about it.
No papers and no story, nothing !!!! The seller say just that it come from Vasek Polack stock, he buy the car with some other Porsche racing cars and parts in a lot, I thing last year. That's all !!!!????
We have time for the story of the car, for the moment we need some (color if possible) pictures of the car at the hands of Dougall or Needell in the Toleman team 78-79. Also a right bodywork to restore it to his original condition.

Thanks for your help,

Fabian

[allenbrown]

Fabian

Could you email me a picture of the chassis plate please. As there are two claimants to be 782-12, it might be worth doing a bit more checking before restoring it to a spac that might not be right.

Thanks

Allen

[dfr]

"Cicale body" . Where can I find information about "Cicale body's" ?

Fabian

[dfr]

Is it come from Tony Cicale ? The man from Indy and Cart series ?

Fabian

[allenbrown]

In 1978, Tony Cicale designed a body to go on a new Ralt RT1 to use in Can-Am. For a school teacher, Cicale turned out to be an expert aerodynamicst and his Ralt was a huge success. He built another car for 1979 and a pair of revised machines for 1980. In 1981, he was recruited by the VDS team to design the body for their new Can-Am cars, which were mechanically Lola T530s under the skin.

The Cicale bodywork was in great demand and somehow bodies started appearing on all sorts of cars. Richard Guider fitted one to his March for 1980 and they later appeared on Chevrons and more modern Marches.

Cicale moved into CART in 1983 with Newman-Haas and won the title there in 1984 with Andretti. He has been in the title-winning team on four other occasions I believe.

Your chassis plate looks completely correct to me by the way. The plate on the "782-12" currently in UK historic racing is not original. (Of course I can't say whether your car is original or whether the other one isn't without a lot of extra work.)

Allen

[allenbrown]

Originally Posted by dfr

We have time for the story of the car, for the moment we need some (color if possible) pictures of the car at the hands of Dougall or Needell in the Toleman team 78-79.

Something like this? Rad Dougall at Thruxton 1979.



Copyright Stuart Dent 2006 (stuart [at] oldracingcars [dot] com).

Allen

[allenbrown]

John - am I allowed to add that we can also help with completing the restoration.

[Dan Rear]

Isn't that 782 just a beauty!!

[dfr]

Thank you very much Allen,
you are very helpful for us.
If you have some other pictures of the rear and/or sides of the car. Are you sure that 782-12 was Dougall car on 78 and 79 ? Are just one bodywork or "evolutions bodyworks" in this period ?
For the moment the car is fitted with a Hart engine but originaly fitted with BMW M12 engine ?

Fabian

[driftwood]

as i said earlier cars ran 78 with Bimmers but Henton had hart car he joined team mid seaosn with his own car
79 dougal ran hart then had ralt rt2

u need to buy siome historic race books
1 is F2 by tristan wood
i have spare copy to sell
1 book is italian f2 book rare and expensive
my copy cost me £110 and has bruno giacomelli`s autograph

then u need single seater vouturette racing copies are rare and £50-75 each

anything else to add Mr Brown
at DP sat not fri or sun

[allenbrown]

Drifty - I see you've rearranged your DP visit to ensure you miss me. Clever!

Fabian - If you want to restore the car back to the form that Dougall won at Thruxton in 1979, then a Hart 420R is right. I'm not sure where you'd find Toleman's 1979 bodywork but if Drifty has a 1978 set you could have it with 1978 bodywork but in the livery and with the Hart engine from Thruxton. It's a bit of a compromise...

[driftwood]

Drifty - I see you've rearranged your DP visit to ensure you miss me. Clever!
sorry not intenional f3 car in at exhaust shop - being made ready friday so must collect and other car from paint shop 1 round robin trip plus free bed friday night at DP awaits- i do have £3 in my pocket for yr beer BH week after?

Toleman car in 79 had ground effect sidepods and 782 nose but it needed chisel nose to be effective with GE pods
hey life today is a compromise run the hart if its in the car cheaper easier to get the car racing
u sell hart buy bmw then fitting kit adaptor plate alter water oil lines new starter small rewire etc new exhaust system

[dfr]

For the engine, we have many M12 engine's also adaptor plates, ...
Just the bodywork. What's the bodywork style when the car was fitted with the Bmw engine ? Who was the driver at this time ?
My customer preffer the BMW so ....

Fabian

[driftwood]

body was same hart or bmw difference is 1978 to 1979 mods

now u need to find fotos of any 782 cars in each year
1979 rad dougal raced 782#12 with hart that is why car has the engine fitted today

1978 rad dougal raced 782#2 and 12 cars with bmw
henton has #23 his own car but later runs in toleman livery with hart engine

i have the thruxton 1979 f2 race on dvd somewhere

[dfr]

So, we need to find some picture's of Dougall car 782-12 in 1978, in Toleman colors ....

Thanks,

Fabian

[driftwood]

suggest u get autosports form 1978
most fotos will be black n white u may fnd the end of season survey has colour fotoss?
Next place to ask are the UK car book shops that also keep old fotos and then the UK library
Ferret fotography has mostly B &W fotos

Im sure 1 or 2 readers here will have their own fotos taken at the races
i will look in my Italian f2 book

[Steve Wilkinson]

Originally Posted by allenbrown

Drifty - I see you've rearranged your DP visit to ensure you miss me. Clever!

Fabian - If you want to restore the car back to the form that Dougall won at Thruxton in 1979, then a Hart 420R is right. I'm not sure where you'd find Toleman's 1979 bodywork but if Drifty has a 1978 set you could have it with 1978 bodywork but in the livery and with the Hart engine from Thruxton. It's a bit of a compromise...

I'll see about scanning my colour slides from the Thruxton '79 race meeting.

I'll get in touch with you Fabian once I have done this.

[dfr]

It is the first forum on which I goes but you all are really helpfull. thank you all for your assistance. A real research team !!!!! Fabian

[driftwood]

Steve he seeks 78 spec car ideally
will be useful to see 79 spec body so i can check what i have for him

[Dan Rear]

Originally Posted by driftwood

Drifty - I see you've rearranged your DP visit to ensure you miss me. Clever!
sorry not intenional f3 car in at exhaust shop - being made ready friday so must collect and other car from paint shop 1 round robin trip plus free bed friday night at DP awaits- i do have £3 in my pocket for yr beer BH week after?

Toleman car in 79 had ground effect sidepods and 782 nose but it needed chisel nose to be effective with GE pods
hey life today is a compromise run the hart if its in the car cheaper easier to get the car racing
u sell hart buy bmw then fitting kit adaptor plate alter water oil lines new starter small rewire etc new exhaust system

I don't agree re 782 pods and GE, Drifty. As the Lawrence book says, I reckon Henton in a well-sorted 782 with pods would have won the F2 series that year. RT2s were a little unreliable early on, the 792s were c--p, so if they'd have persevered with 782, SuperHen would have won I reckon.

I fully realise Team was committed to the RT2s though, so in reality, it wouldn't have happened. Just my views !!

[dfr]

I follow F2 championship from 1978-79 :

1978
Truxton 27 march pos 3 clas 3 number 37
hockenheim 9 april pos 10 clas 10 number 37
nurburgring 30 april 26 did not finish (engine) number 37
hockenheim 9 april pos 10 clas 10 number 37
thruxton 27 march pos 3 clas 3 number 37
pau 15 may pos 30 clas dna number 37
mugello 28 may pos 12 clas 12 number 37
vallelunga 4 june pos 20 did not finish (accident) number 37
rouen 18 june pos 27 did not qualify number 37
donington 25 june pos 6 clas 6 number 37
nogaro 9 july pos 28 did not qualify number 37
persusa 23 july pos 16 did not finish (accident) number 37
santamonica rimini 6 august pos 20 did not finish (electrical) number 37
hockenheim 24 september pos 25 clas ??? number 37
san martin argentina 5 november pos 19 did not finish (loose wheel)nb12
buenos aires 11 november pos 16 did not finish (gear selector) nb 12

all this 78 races with a March 782 with BMW engine

From 1979, many changes :

silverstone 25 march Dougall drive a March-Hart number 15 did not finish
Henton drive a RT2-Hart
hockenheim 8 april dougal drive a March-Hart number 15 Henton drive a RT2-Hart
thruxton 16 april ???? March-Hart or RT2-Hart for Dougall number 15 Henton drive a Ralt-Hart
Nurburgring 29 april Dougall RT1-Hart ? number 36
Vallelunga 13 may Dougall drive a March-Hart number 15 Henton drive a March-Hart
Mugello 20 may Dougall drive a March-Hart number 15 Henton drive a March-Hart number 14
Pau 4 june Dougall drive a Ralt number 15 did not finish (accident).

For 79, our car 782-12 can be our car ?!

Fabian