The HSCC Guards Trophy Series

[john ruston]

Messrs H and W.It all depends on drivers.
Having watched the first hour of Autosport race noted that there was a gap of up to ten sec between some driver pairings ,The 1600's were 2 sec a lap slower than B 6/8's,but those times worth checking.
Have seen two of the races and seem to work without bringing in the Can Am cars.
Occasional win by 1600 ish car and interest added by B6/8 What do you do with B6/8 if no Guards?

[Robert Farrell]

At first I thought looking at the varying qualifying session sizes might cast some light as to the best path for the future Guards races.
Silverstone in May the combined grid SR & GTS was 48 cars
Brands in July the same composition produced 45 cars
Oulton Park the two types were split resulted in 22 Sports racers and 31 GTS.
Interestingly The GTSCC race at Silverstone produced a grid of 51 cars.
So it looks as though the figures only add to the confusion
Personally I find the speed differential between my 1962 E type and the Chevrons intimidating. One of the reasons I didn`t enter the Mallory round was because I had visions of spending the entire race driving round the outside line on the circuit with the majority of GT cars whilst the Chevrons etc drove round the inside, a sort of extra large Scalextric race with two slots or lanes.

[iconway]

Beautifully put, Robert. Looking at Mallory practice times the leading SR guys were lapping in 51s vs the Griff/Marcos at 54-55s and the regularly quick B2 guys around 59s, so maybe they squeezed in three lanes? At the Guards meeting Andy Shepherd raised the point that as a club we haven't been to Thruxton in years (I think the last time was 2001, will have to dig out my programme). Admittedly it's not very central but it's a fast sweeping circuit in the mould of Combe/Silverstone GP/Snett and would suit both SR and GT cars. I suspect the turn-out would be better than Mallory too.

[one-two]

I agree that Guards works best on the longer, wider circuits. If the quicker cars are 10% faster than the slower ones, they will lap the latter 4 times in a 40 lap race - 40 mins at a Mallory or BH indy, say - and only half as often in a 20 lap race. (I think that's right?) The only thing I would add is that it's not so much the existence of the speed differential that's the issue as the way competitors - quicker and slower - chose to manage it. On the whole, I don't think it's too bad at all.

[iconway]

Just had a look at the results from the Masters' Mallory meeting at the weekend and the Cloth Cap/XK race in particular. Best time in the race was just over 55s by the winning E-Type, closely followed by a Cobra, while the quickest GTS11 car was a red MGB at 58s. Not a vastly bigger grid than Guards, 18 cars of which 11 were XKs. Interestingly, neither the Sports Racing Masters or the World Sportcar Masters series were out, hmm.

[Mike Bell]

Originally Posted by iconway

Interestingly, neither the Sports Racing Masters or the World Sportcar Masters series were out, hmm.

Hi Ian, that's because it was a 'Top Hat' meeting rather than 'Masters'. All gets confused with pre 66 saloons at both and sometimes combining grids but that is the general idea......

The WSM and SRM cars were at Algarve race w/end before.

[iconway]

Thanks Mike. It's been a while since I did Top Hat, can't keep up with all the changes. (Off-thread: It was interesting to see the times for Oldies, though - I see you can now get an A40 'lightweight'?!)

[Mike Bell]

Originally Posted by iconway

I see you can now get an A40 'lightweight'?!)

With apologies for being OT- I need to get the homologation papers for that one

[terence]

Apparently,they are available in WH Smiths.












You'll need to look in the Fiction Section !

[GrahamH]

Picking up on Teddington Ted's point from earlier about longer races, I'd very much like to race my 70s car (Alfa GTV) with the HSCC in longer races, but there's currently no opportunity to do that.

Does anybody have a view on whether Guards Trophy could offer a home to post 1966 cars running to Appendix K? I think there would be quite a response to such a move, and the cars would fit in very well in terms of lap times.

[zefarelly]

CSCC caters for 70's and longer does it not?

the HSCC is predominantly one dayers and can't fit anything else in the timeframe

ObG cars are not fiction Terry, more a mix of science and humour

[simon drabble]

Graham I think it is unlikely to happen one of the problems being that 70's cars run on Yoki's rather than M's or L's. However as 70's cars generally get more traction (and Masters must take some credit for this) I think it is quite feasible to suggest a parallel series coudl develop, maybe 70's Roadsports should offer some longer distance races...
You could of course enter you car in the Eau Rouge class of Spa 6 Hour.

[GrahamH]

Yes, CSCC does offer longer races for 70s cars. I raced a couple of times with them this year in a 70s Lancia. The only drawbacks with CSCC are that (a) their series allows highly modified cars, so the opposite to the Appendix K approach; and (b) The 70s cars are mixed in with 80s and 90s cars, which are much faster and high-tech.

To pick up Simon's points, I'd quite happily (?) run on Dunlop L or M section tyres if that meany being able to run in Guards Trophy. Yes Masters have made an effort with 70s cars, but looking at the grids for this year, don't seem to have had much success. Maybe this is down to relatively high entry fees on a limited range of UK circuits?

I raced in HSCC 70s Roadsports for quite a few years, and whilst they obviously cater for 70s cars, the HSCC are unwilling (unable) to provide Roadsports with longer races as their race days don't have the space on the timetable. The other issue with 70s is that the driving standards have gone downhil, plus the amount of modifications allowed is increasing.

I hope I haven't gone too far "off thread", but I did want to open up the idea of having a place to race 70s Appendix K cars with the HSCC, which is a really good club.

[fasted]

Two thoughts.
Firstly. If, for example, HSCC Guards Trophy round at Oulton Park (GT Cars only) can raise a grid of 40+cars. Why mix saloons and GT cars?
Secondly. There are people who are disenchanted with the Guards series because of the inclusion of what some think to be inappropriate sports-racing cars. Will this series have an effect on the Guards series?

[Teddington Ted]

The CSSC Appendix K race is a natural competitive development in my view. The HSCC don't seem to want to listen - there are hundreds of pre 66 GT cars out there racing with various clubs and yet the Guards Trophy still panders to the sports racers thus preventing it from being the leading pre 66 GT series in the country.

I shall continue with the Morgan in Guards but fully expect to be in a dwindling group of GT cars being zapped by Chevrons.

[simon drabble]

I agree but the irony is that the more GT's that enter the less Chevrons that can play as they are only an invitation class.......

[rogerwills]

Originally Posted by Teddington Ted

The HSCC don't seem to want to listen - there are hundreds of pre 66 GT cars out there racing with various clubs and yet the Guards Trophy still panders to the sports racers thus preventing it from being the leading pre 66 GT series in the country.

I sit in both camps here.

But lets not forget the history of the Guards Trophy.....

[simon drabble]

Roger is correct. Back in the day sports racers like Merlyns, Elvas and 23b's were competing so there is a compelling argument to say that they are correct to be there, more spurious are mixing it up with Chevrons etc but that is up to "proper" cars to enter as they are an invitation class. I am sure HSCC would be delighted if the deluge of GTs and sports cars along with pre 66 sports racers left no slots free for post 66 s/racers

[Teddington Ted]

Originally Posted by rogerwills

I sit in both camps here.

But lets not forget the history of the Guards Trophy.....

Yep, I take the point Roger. I guess if Guards was kept pre 66 I'd be happier.

Mark

[simon drabble]

Originally Posted by Teddington Ted

Yep, I take the point Roger. I guess if Guards was kept pre 66 I'd be happier.

Mark

pre 66 or no sports racers? Because pre 66 still includes 23b's etc (which are period correct)

[zefarelly]

pre66, no Chevrons/DUlons etc, they seem to be a step too far against 11's, TR's MGB's etc

[simon drabble]

then we all agree!

[Teddington Ted]

Originally Posted by simon drabble

pre 66 or no sports racers? Because pre 66 still includes 23b's etc (which are period correct)

To include 23b's etc. That was Roger's point.

[simon drabble]

Mark you are then trying to distort history!! Go back into the history of Guards or indeed any other GT type race of that era and they included 23b;s etc... the Chevrons etc are a more obvious argument.

[John Turner]

I'm just picking out a few of these comments, although this probably all ought to be on the Guards Trophy thread started a while back.

Originally Posted by Teddington Ted

The HSCC don't seem to want to listen - there are hundreds of pre 66 GT cars out there racing with various clubs and yet the Guards Trophy still panders to the sports racers thus preventing it from being the leading pre 66 GT series in the country.

My understanding is that they are listening but they are not getting the level of feedback on this subject that appears, for example, on this forum. I understand that the issue was barely raised at the last drivers meeting. How many competing actually feel this way?

Originally Posted by simon drabble

Roger is correct. Back in the day sports racers like Merlyns, Elvas and 23b's were competing so there is a compelling argument to say that they are correct to be there, more spurious are mixing it up with Chevrons etc but that is up to "proper" cars to enter as they are an invitation class.

It's all about the numbers game, though isn't it? I'm sure that the later cars were invited to ensure:-

1) Healthy sized grids
2) Somewhere for them to race. Where else do the B6/B8s, G16s, Lenhams get to race regularly in the UK
3) Probably last in the pecking order, but to give spectators the opportunity to see the iconic Chevrons racing.

There is another point to this, too. Excluding post 66 cars, whilst it may reduce the regularity of lapping by quicker cars, won't necessarily stop it. We've already seen that the Shipman/Hales Crossle 7S is capable of lapping as quick a the later cars, and Simon Hadfield has said that a well driven and well prepared Elva Mk8 can do likewise. Both cars are eligible under your proposed pre 66 cut off point, and as potential winners, you could see such cars turn up in increased numbers and more often.

I am sure HSCC would be delighted if the deluge of GTs and sports cars along with pre 66 sports racers left no slots free for post 66 s/racers

Only, surely, in order for them to split the grids into two races, as they did at Oulton Park, one for all the sports racers, pre and post 1966, and the other for pre 66 GT and sports cars. HSCC would certainly not wish to the lose the Invitation class cars to another series, so if, ultimately the numbers stacked up, the only way they would go would be as per Oulton Park. There really are two issues being raised here:-

1) The disparity of performance between sports racers and (generally based on road going) GT/sports cars
2) Mixing pre 66 cars (including the sports racers) with later invitation sports racers.

Point 1 does have some merit, and, I guess if HSCC saw registrations of, say 60+ odd cars for the series and they were relatively evenly spread between sports racers and GT/sports cars, then more of the 'Oulton Park' approach might find favour, provided of course they could slot more races into an already busy calendar. Point 2 is more contentious. 1966 is just arbitrary date really and you will see from my comments both above and below that, if it's a performance issue, it doesn't really hold much water.

Originally Posted by Teddington Ted

Yep, I take the point Roger. I guess if Guards was kept pre 66 I'd be happier. Mark

Originally Posted by simon drabble

pre 66 or no sports racers? Because pre 66 still includes 23b's etc (which are period correct)

Originally Posted by simon drabble

then we all agree!

Ok, guys; let's be clear about this. The Guards title is a famous racing name from the past and catered for different car types during its lifetime. It would be difficult to run a race series in historics based on one or two seasons; there would unlikely be sufficient numbers of entries to make it sustainable. So you pick, and it was inspirational, a name like Guards Trophy to hang your hat on and you 'loosely' base the series on the cars that ran in the period that the original series ran, but that was over several seasons and featured different cars/classes, so you include all of them and to ensure good sized and attractive grids from the start you also include an invitation class. Incidentally, whenever you start a new series it usually makes good sense to include an invitation class because you can never be sure how many cars are going to turn out or be available/prepared in the first couple of seasons.

Now, I also detect selective memories about what constitutes a pre 66 Guards car. I have before me the programme for the Guards International meeting at Brands Hatch on 30 August, 1965. The entry list for the Guards International makes interesting reading. It's for Sports cars (we'd call them sports racers now) complying with Appendix 'C' (1965) to the International code. There is therefore not a single sports car (as opposed to sports racer) or GT car, but if you think it is made up of Lotus 23s, Merlyn Mk6, Elva Mk7s, Brabham BT8s, Crossles etc, you'd be wrong. Of the 33 cars entered, that class is catered for by just 9 entries - 3 x Elva Mk7, 1 x Elva Mk8, 3 x Brabham BT8, 1 x Lotus-Brabham BMW and 1 x Merlyn Mk6. The rest, 24 cars, in all, are all over 2 - litres, and by some margin. Unbelievable really but they are made up as follows:-

Lola T70 spyders - 6
McLaren Elva's - 6
Lotus 30/40s - 7
Attila Chevrolet - 1
Cooper Monaco Ford - 1
Brabham BT 8 Ford - 1
Ferrari 365P2 - 2

The 'smallest' engines in that class are the 4.4 litre V12s in the Ferraris. All the rest are Ford, Chevrolet or OLdsmobile V8s.

Now let's go back to the current HSCC series. For arguments sake, we get rid of the invitation class, and restrict it to all Pre 66 'Guards' cars (whatever that means to you!) that ran in the Guards races in period. Now, although Class D of the series allows for 'standard and competition GT cars over 4000cc' and I know that certainly allows cars like the GT40, 250LM, Lola Mk6 in, I'm not clear on what the definition of GT cars is. I've always though of GT cars as closed cars, but I'm not sure that historically that was always the case. However, the point is that if you say everything would be OK if the series restricted itself to Pre 66 Guards cars, split into classes as per period, then what's to stop Roger Wills, Julian Bronson, Martin Stretton, Simon Hadfield etc turning up in McLarens and Lola T70 spyders. The performance disparity would still exist. If you don't like having to keep out of the way of B8s, you certainly won't want to put up with T70s and M1Bs, which take up a lot more room. The real issue is therefore, as I said earlier, the performance disparity (point 1, above), not the pre 1966 cut off date, nor indeed what consitutes a 'Guards' car which are red herrings and, I feel, miss the target.

Incidentally, whilst a non racing member of the HSCC, these are my own thoughts on the matter and don't necessarily represent the views of the club.

Now this discussion about the Guards Trophy appears to be swamping the thread title, which is pretty unfair to the tread starter so I'm going to move some of this to the old Guards thread, shortly.