The HSCC Guards Trophy Series

[John Turner]

Some of these posts have been moved from the CSCC mini enduro thread because they are much more Guards orientated, and are rather swamping the new thread. I see that really we are going over old ground, but I see that the issue is tending still to rumble on a bit, so maybe those individuals who actually contest the Guards rounds and who still have an issue ought to get together and put some constructive suggestions together and put them to the HSCC. However, you do need to accept that the current HSCC series and calendar is both very successful and pretty packed, and adding new grids, and/or series, because that is in effect what would need to happen, would not be the work of a moment, and probably not for next season, anyway, so it would have to be a pretty compelling argument in terms of numbers and more of a mid to long term proposal.

[Teddington Ted]

Originally Posted by simon drabble

Mark you are then trying to distort history!! Go back into the history of Guards or indeed any other GT type race of that era and they included 23b;s etc... the Chevrons etc are a more obvious argument.

What are you on Simon ? I am agreeing that 23bs should be in. Please read threads properly before reacting.

My main point is not that there should be adherance to what ran in the Guards Trophy in period as in reality the HSCC is just using the name. Rather I think that the HSCC should run a pre 66 championship for GT cars as there are so many out there that commercially it would be a great success (and yes before anyone jumps on that comment I am aware of the history of the Classic Sports Car championship fore runner to Guards). Masters, GT and Sportscar Cup, CSSC, pre-63 GTs.......the HSCC is missing an opportunity.

Mark

[Simon Hadfield]

If there are that many cars that could have run in the old Classic Sports Car championship why was it on its last legs? Frankly euthanasia awaited and the introduction of the sports racers saved its bacon. The fact is that as shown by the grids at the Gold Cup there are enough cars out there - the question is where are they the rest of the time and why dont they support the other meetings?

[simon drabble]

Mark I didn't mean my comment to sound agressive - I jsut dont know how to use smileys!! I think if HSCC ran Guards as a 1 hour race we would see more GT's come out. Current trend is shared racing and I subscribe to it

[Mike Wroe]

As someone who raced in the old Classic Sports Car championship with the HSCC, one of the main reasons it was in decline was because it only featured 15 minute races other than 1x 40 minute race at Snetterton which didn't really suit most of the people with eligible cars I spoke to, salt was really rubbed in the wound when the HSCC sold a 1 hour race at Oulton to Gentlemen Drivers whilst restricting its own members with similar Appendix K cars to a 15 minute sprint. People just voted with their entry forms, ironically now we have the sports racers in we are offered several 40 minute races plus of course the 3 hour race at Snetterton.

[simon drabble]

but 40 minutes is a cop out as well - its neither fish nor foul as its too short really for two drivers. I am afraid HSCC are very good at almost delivering something really good but going for the cheap option at the last minute. Why wasn't the 3 hour race tacked onto the May Silverstone International meeting instead of Snett which is not quite as appealing... instead of inviting a French series who arrived with Morgan plus 8's (ironically members of HSCC HRS series) why didn't they include Appendix K saloons like Spa 6 Hour. It is frustrating how often they are almost fantastic but lack the self confidence to go out on a limb and do something really special.
For all that I am and will remain a member!

[Simon Hadfield]

So now the races are longer why don't we have more entries? As Simon Drabble has so often said, the answer is for more pre 66 cars to enter and ease the later cars out. It would appear the HSCC has given more track time, has given more circuit choice, has offered shared driving opportunities - were are all your entries? If there were huge entries then the grid would gain "critical mass" and have more sway in what could be asked for.

[Mike Wroe]

For myself I've moved over to race with with the CSCC although I hope to do some Guards races this year as I still remain a member. I think the HSCC is a fantastic club that puts on great meetings but having been welcomed with open arms at the CSCC and had some fantastic times racing with them they will remain the focus of my racing.

[one-two]

This can be a very critical forum! It seems to me that the current Guards format works in terms of grid size, is more affordable than many alternatives, provides good racing up and down the grid and fits the club's spirit of running a full calendar of events at a range of circuits. I don't see what's not to like. It's a lot of things that classic sports cars - at the end, at least - wasn't and there's no getting away from that. It's true that there are speed differentials between the front and back of the grid, but, for the most part, that's resolved by sensible and - to be fair to ourselves - relatively skillful driving on both sides. In the spirit of full disclosure, I'll admit that I got hit by one of the B8's last season. It was travelling at about 5mph in the pit lane at Brands and I was stationary. A speed differential of sorts, I suppose.

[zefarelly]

It can one-two, men of a certain age have little better to do it would appear!

I think the CSCC new proposal is great, likewise is Guards, I also think theres space for both as there are more and more APp K cars being built, you also need to consider that HSCC members with more than one car will do Guards whereas non App K multi car owners will more than likely already be CSCC members ( I can think of a few anyway)

the CSCC appeals as I have an App K saloon, and the Rochdale (One day) will also be eligible at the same meetings, in period trim the Rochdale wouldn't be HRS legal however . . . and the COrtinas not Guards eligible, only HRSR.

[one-two]

That's more like it! Do try HRS with the Rochdale - would be great to see that out and scrapping with the Turners and what not. The club should try to find a place for it, even if that turns out to be in an invitation class or something.

[zefarelly]

It is eligible for HRS, but its always been a competition car so not 'road spec'

to be honest theres not much difference that would stop HRS allowing it, and I have the original build spec sheet to justify it, I wouldn't run the HEwland 5 speed for various obvious reasons, and a 1500 precrossflow is probably a better bet than a 1300 crossflow . . . . although debatable.

anyway, if its wheels touch tarmac it'll be a miracle, spec aside!

[Mike Bell]

Originally Posted by zefarelly

anyway, if its wheels touch tarmac it'll be a miracle, spec aside!

How about a build party, Joe. We'll all descend on you one w/end and help finish it off- just for unlimited alchohol and food in return (while working, of course!)

[Rudernst]

I do the odd Guards Trophy race in my Lotus 11 but a lot less this year than last year.

The speed differentials are huge and I have grown a bit tired of getting carved up by those Chevrons. I have 3 very big mirrors on my car mounted on high turrets and still feel like a sitting duck.

The class system isnt exactly making it any more interesting either.
Class SRA is for every sports racing built before a certain age. You can be in a 1.1 litre car and find yourself in the same class as a 3.8 litre Jaguar just because the age bracket is the same.

I do like the team element and the tactics very much. But I agree that You need and hour to make it a good 2 driver race. Unfortunately this takes up a lot of track time.

The series has evolved into something different. If the grids are full and works, ok.

I still do the odd one in future, but in its current shape but its not my favorite series.

[fasted]

Guards Trophy Brands Hatch
August 1964

Classified: 18
:
Fastest lap: Bruce McLaren No. 11 Zerex Special Oldsmobile 1:44 147,624 km/h
11 Bruce McLaren (NZ) Zerex Special Oldsmobile F1/16/61 Bruce McLaren 50 1:28:40,400 1. S+2.0 1. 1:42,200 2. 22 Denny Hulme (NZ) Brabham BT8 Climax Team Elite 50 1:29:22,800 1. S2.0 3. - Jack Brabham (AUS) Brabham BT8 Climax 50 1:29:51,400 2. S+2.0 no time 4. 10 Graham Hill (GB) Ferrari 330 P 0818 Maranello Concessionaires 50 1:29:56,600 3. S+2.0 5. - Jack Sears (GB) A.C. Cobra John Willment 49 1:28:44,200 1. GT 6. - Chris Amon (NZ) A.C. Cobra C. T. Atkins 49 1:28:45,600 2. GT 7. - Tony Lanfranchi (GB) Elva Mk.7 BMW 49 1:29:28,800 2. S2.0 8. - David Piper (GB) Ferrari 250 LM 5897 49 9. - Hugh Dibley (GB) Brabham BT8 Climax SC-2-64 SMART 48 10. - John Coundley (GB) Lotus 19 Climax 964 47 11. 8 Augie Pabst (USA) Lola Mk.6 GT Chevrolet LGT-2 John Mecom 47 12. - Dick Protheroe (GB) Jaguar E type 46 1:28:40,800 3. GT 13. - David Prophet (GB) Elva Mk.7 BMW 70P/053 46 1:28:53,200 3. S2.0 14. - Mike Salmon (GB) Aston Martin DP214 0194/R 46 15. - Tommy Hitchcock (USA) A.C. Cobra 46 16. - Bob Olthoff (ZA) A.C. Cobra 45 17. - Roger Mac (GB) Jaguar E type 256DJU 44 18. - Peter Sutcliffe (GB) Jaguar E type Lightweight S850666? Peter Sutcliffe? 39 Did not finish: - Roy Salvadori (GB) Cooper Monaco T61P Maserati C. T. Atkins 35 DNF 9 Walt Hansgen (USA) Lotus 19 Oldsmobile 965 John Mecom 34 DNF - Jackie Stewart (GB) Jaguar E type John Coombs DNF GT - Frank Gardner (AUS) Elva Mk.7 BMW DNF - Charlie Hayes (USA) Elva Mk.7 BMW DNF - Paul Hawkins (AUS) Lotus 23 106 DNF - Trevor Taylor (GB) Elva Mk.7 BMW DNF - A. J. Foyt (USA) Scarab Mk IV Chevrolet MkIV John Mecom DNF - Roy Pierpoint (GB) Attila - Ford DNF - Roger Nathan (GB) Brabham BT8 Climax SC-3-64 Roger Nathan DNF 4 Jim Clark (GB) Lotus 30 Ford DNF 31 Innes Ireland (GB) Ferrari 250 GTO 64 4399GT MO91553 Maranello Concessionaires Brakes In entry list: - Poper - Chris Kerrison (GB) Ferrari 250 GT SWB Drogo 2735GT MO66178?? Chris Kerrison

[one-two]

What an amazing grid - it's not just the cars that are different nowadays!

[zefarelly]

Originally Posted by Mike Bell

How about a build party, Joe. We'll all descend on you one w/end and help finish it off- just for unlimited alchohol and food in return (while working, of course!)

yhe amount of food and alcohol that gets consumed by this lot . . . it'd be cheaper to get Prodrive to build it with bespoke C&G parts!

[Mike Bell]

Originally Posted by zefarelly

yhe amount of food and alcohol that gets consumed by this lot . . . it'd be cheaper to get Prodrive to build it with bespoke C&G parts!

You're probably right!

[fasted]

It is test day at Croft. I amsitting in the paddock writing this. This is a test run for my new "Dongle". Everyone I`ve met today connected with the circuit and the local clubs are genuinely excited about the HSCC meeting in August and detemined to make it a fantastic weekend. I hope their efforts are appreciated and rewarded

[simon drabble]

what is a Dongle?!

[Peter Mallett]

http://www.top10-broadband.co.uk/mobile_broadband/

[fasted]

Originally Posted by simon drabble

what is a Dongle?!

Sorry Simon and you thought I had unearthed some long lost marque!
I am certain, having met you, you didn`t think it was anything rude

[terence]

Originally Posted by simon drabble

what is a Dongle?!

And we wonder why our banking system is buggered.

[zefarelly]

he's just spent Friday afternoon on ebay loolking for a pre 66 dongle to see if he can find a competitive Guards car on a poor bankers budget!

[gary396]

Originally Posted by fasted

It is test day at Croft. I amsitting in the paddock writing this. This is a test run for my new "Dongle". Everyone I`ve met today connected with the circuit and the local clubs are genuinely excited about the HSCC meeting in August and detemined to make it a fantastic weekend. I hope their efforts are appreciated and rewarded

I can echo those views - all the Croft regulars are looking forward to this one and we're hoping there will be a good entry list.

If anyone is thinking of bringing friends & family why not make a long weekend of it and visit the International Tall Ships Races which are based at Hartlepool Marina the same weekend. It's only about 30 miles from Croft:

http://www.hartlepooltallships2010.com/index.php

(And no, I'm not a tourist information officer!)