[DTM] Why there is no good solution for DTM's dilemma

[Speed-King]

NGTC is better than TCR for sure. I wonder if there's any data about spendings in WTCR and BTCC. I won't be surprised if "cost effective" racing is more expensive. And I would be amazed if Berger and ITR adopt NGTC - it's not "Premium" enough for marketing departments.

At least when it comes to buying the car itself, TCR is considerably cheaper than NGTC, with the former coming in at around €130000, whereas the cost of a new NGTC is reported to be at around £200000, in other words €100000 more than the TCR.

The big advantage of NGTC over TCR is the spec-running gear, which allows teams to adapt pretty much any car for NGTC without having to do much R&D for things such as suspension geometry, whereas each TCR model has its own bespoke suspension design. And since manufacturers are just better at developing these kind of things or can at least throw more money at it, they invariably come out on top, which results in huge fleets of Hyundais and little else.

[GusGasfuss]

I think, Japanese SuperGT is different due to different japanese attitudes. I believe, that these manufacturers can't refuse to be in SuperGT, even if it doesn't help with sales figures.

Its kind of "loosing face"...


Sure, NGTC is at first more expensive than WTCR, but maybe more interesting due to "building their own car" and have more possibilties to improve it.


Maybe many brands in WTCR sell the car cheaper than it is and try to earn the missing money by selling spare parts...

[Bcarr6]

Interested even more so in how DTM pans out in 2021 after today’s announcement

Audi & BMW supporting future GT based direction but not clear to what extent, with BMW at least not keen to commit any funding to a very outdated GT3 model

Berger also said other manufacturers interested in joining in some way.

I’d quite enjoy one hour sprint races, single driver, all pro, tire pit stops.

I don’t necessarily think the Gt3s need ramping up if they are just a short term solution.

There is currently nowhere on the world you can see a pro only field of GT drivers compete in GT’s in a sprint format with DTM quality production.

[Bcarr6]

So, the big question is, when does DTM 2021 move to the GT racing forum??

[hondafan37]

Glickenhaus interested in fielding cars in GT3-based DTM

https://www.motorsport.com/dtm/news/...3avNXXJJPxmbPI

[redshoes]

Originally Posted by hondafan37

Glickenhaus interested in fielding cars in GT3-based DTM

Content of the article doesn't really match the headline, although perhaps no surprise.

“This is not a series that our factory would enter, however, we would build a car to those specs and we think there are customers that would want to buy it and race in the DTM and it would be a way for the DTM to survive"

In other words, Glickenhaus isn't interested in fielding cars, he is interested in selling cars for other people to field.

[NSX_LeMans]

Audi and BMW hesitant to invest in development for new GT Pro class

https://www.touringcartimes.com/2020...-gt-pro-class/

[Matt K]

But at the same time Berger is 'surprised' by the level of interest and hints there will be more manufacturers and a healthy grid both in terms of quality and quantity. He's convinced there will be more than 20 cars on the grid.

[Tja]

Originally Posted by Matt K

But at the same time Berger is 'surprised' by the level of interest and hints there will be more manufacturers and a healthy grid both in terms of quality and quantity. He's convinced there will be more than 20 cars on the grid.

It seems to me that while teams are interested to field their GT3 cars that they've already got, Berger is so focused on making something special out of it that the manufacturers won't be interested to invest in the necessary updates to the cars and it'll all fall through in the end.

Just go for basic GT3 cars, no need to fiddle around with them and mess up your own BOP for 2 years until they can get it (sort of) right. And in the meantime, create a new set of rules for touringcars with a focus on privateer teams for 2022 or '23.

[S griffin]

I agree. Why do they need all the extra add ons? GT3 cars are spectacular enough as it is without them. And they can race fine. It’s already a bit of a risk to go down this route, why potentially make it worst?

[Matt K]

I agree it might be like that, however, my impression is Berger now knows it's make it or break it so he'll be careful. He insisted on standing stars as they're a typical part of DTM but manufacturers were unwilling to invest in new, special clutches and now it seems Berger has agreed to flying starts instead in order not to increase costs.

A new ruleset for the future is needed, I think in 2023-2025 the latest, DTM should go electric. Even though I dislike it (like the whole EV concept), it's the right way to go. The sooner, the better because DTM then may be one of the first championships (apart from FE of course) to use an electric powertrain and it may attract manufacturers, including those who think FE doesn't really reflect their road car portfolios.

[gert]

Originally Posted by Matt K

But at the same time Berger is 'surprised' by the level of interest and hints there will be more manufacturers and a healthy grid both in terms of quality and quantity. He's convinced there will be more than 20 cars on the grid.

But who is going to run all these cars?
WRT is looking ito LMP2, and so is Phoenix (and they might as well add LMP3)

[Matt K]

Phoenix is already planning DTM involvement. I don't know anything about WRT. But remember that there are more Audi teams having GT3 cars and Audi Sport has allegedly sent emails with "DTM's offer" to all its customer teams. We don't know which ones will be interested and, more importantly, will be able to do that.

[courageous]

The manufacturers don't want to spend to upgrade their GT3 cars
The championship wants them to be faster than standard GT3

Just some minor tweaks on the BOP (so you can claim you've done something to the cars) then call up your Japanese mates and get some of those Super GT mega tyres
problem solved surely?

[medius]

At what point dies this championship stop being classed as touring cars and belong in the GT section of the forum? I think that passed 3 seasons ago.

[Matt K]

If so, maybe we should assume it was last 'touring cars' in the 90s. I think people are too much attached to labels.

[S griffin]

It wasn't quite the same as normal touring cars then either. It's still enough of a tin top series, but we'll see what the new formula brings if it happens

[Matt K]

And will DTM become 'touring car' again in, say 2025 when new regulations will be in place?

[Cinghio44]

Originally Posted by Matt K

I agree it might be like that, however, my impression is Berger now knows it's make it or break it so he'll be careful. He insisted on standing stars as they're a typical part of DTM but manufacturers were unwilling to invest in new, special clutches and now it seems Berger has agreed to flying starts instead in order not to increase costs.



A new ruleset for the future is needed, I think in 2023-2025 the latest, DTM should go electric. Even though I dislike it (like the whole EV concept), it's the right way to go. The sooner, the better because DTM then may be one of the first championships (apart from FE of course) to use an electric powertrain and it may attract manufacturers, including those who think FE doesn't really reflect their road car portfolios.

PURE ETCR will be the first electric touring car championship in the World... I'm afraid DTM is late on this side and aswell on Hybrid which the BTCC seems to have sorted the right formula. All the others series, so also DTM, are playing the waiting game...

For now this GT3+ formula is the right decision for the DTM survival and the big advantage in my opinion is that the Championship doesn't need the direct involvment of the manufacturers that especially in these years come and go very frequently without giving any consistence...

[FIRE]

Originally Posted by Matt K

And will DTM become 'touring car' again in, say 2025 when new regulations will be in place?

Except for premium brands like Audi/BMW/Mercedes saloons aren't selling in Europe like in the 90s. Don't see DTM move to the smaller hatchbacks, like in TCR. So the amount of potential interested manufacturers is limited.

In Supercars you see the same problem, only difference is that series has backing from a lot of sponsors besides the manufacturers. Supercars can survive whithout manufacturer support, DTM cannot.

[FIRE]

Came across this today, sounds more like rallycross but still:

This afternoon saw the presentation of SuperCharge, a new global motorsport series with electrically powered SUVs, due to start in 2022. The organization, led by co-founder Rob Armstrong, who has experience from Formula 1 and the World Rallycross Championship, is planning eight events for the first season in cities in Asia / Pacific, China, Europe, the Middle East and the United States. The other founder is Max Welti, who earned his spurs in leading motorsport positions at Porsche, Volkswagen and Lamborghini, among others, and was also team manager at Sauber in sports cars and Formula 1.

...

a 2.5-meter ramp, so that the cars go up to ten meters high every lap. We know similar scenes from American 'stadium trucks'. Low friction zones, where drifts and slips are possible, are also part of the plans, as is a sprinkler installation above the course. The last element is the 'SuperLoop', similar to the joker lap in rallycross, which must be used once per race. The competition format is also similar to rallycross with initially 16 cars from eight teams and then a quarter and semifinal and final system, all with fast, short races with a maximum of six laps.

Holzer Engineering, who have a past in STW and DTM will develop the cars.

Full article (in Dutch):
http://autosport.nl/klasse/nieuws/34...2022-van-start

[Matt K]

Originally Posted by FIRE

Except for premium brands like Audi/BMW/Mercedes saloons aren't selling in Europe like in the 90s. Don't see DTM move to the smaller hatchbacks, like in TCR. So the amount of potential interested manufacturers is limited.

In Supercars you see the same problem, only difference is that series has backing from a lot of sponsors besides the manufacturers. Supercars can survive whithout manufacturer support, DTM cannot.

So does 'touring car' means a saloon?

And yes, I agree, I don't see DTM moving to smaller hatchbacks like TCR because it's clearly against their 'DNA' as DTM has always (almost) been about fast, exciting cars.

It's true what you say about Supercars, the 'new' DTM may change it a bit. Manufacturers will no longer be directly involved and maybe this can change the whole landscape. We'll see. Early signs are positive when it comes to teams' interest and so on but we'll be certain only when we see a confirmed entry list for the 2021 season.

[FIRE]

Originally Posted by Matt K

So does 'touring car' means a saloon?

No but for DTM it is because they use larger cars so this means saloons or GT's.

[S griffin]

For me DTM is a silhouette tin top series. Nothing wrong with that, but for me it's not traditional tin tops like BTCC, TCR or even V8 Supercars

[Bcarr6]

Originally Posted by S griffin

For me DTM is a silhouette tin top series. Nothing wrong with that, but for me it's not traditional tin tops like BTCC, TCR or even V8 Supercars

DTM though is adopting 'GT Pro' (GT3 plus, but not really very much plus, more just GT3 with a new sticker on) for 2021, so I do think its time to see DTM 2021 in the GT section of the Forum!