[Team] Mercedes: Will they ever dominate again?

[Teretonga]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

Mattia Binotto has noted that - “I don’t know why the others are not as quick as we are with porpoising. But it’s true that we are still suffering with it. We put some actions on the car to try to mitigate it, but it’s not yet addressed and solved. But it’s always a compromise between trying to solve it and giving up some performance, while maybe in the meantime you have to have some porpoising to get the best out of your car.”

For some reason though - the Mercedes drivers are having to lift earlier before a corner to settle the car, compared to the Ferrari drivers who seem to be able to enter a corner [braking zone] at full speed.

I have some personal theories as the why the Mercedes seems to be the worst of the porpoises.
It has to do with the balance of the car or the centre of the moment.
The Ferrari for example has the majority of its underbody downforce towards the rear of the car and the tunnels and diffuser are designed that way deliberately. So maximum speed being where the greatest force is created is slightly aft of centre.
Maybe Ferrari learned something in the wind tunnel during last years development
I think Mercedes centre of point is further forward and the fact that the porpoising comes in at a lower speed may indicate that all the data they have saying the car is really good on a computer is true.
In fact it may be generating more downforce at a lower speed than anyone and that alone may be why they are having so much trouble.
MB bouncing is more violent than anyone else has experienced.

Regarding the late 79/80s era.
The amount of downforce was not as extreme as in this current generation of cars. Aero development has advanced light since the early 80s which was pioneering and very much experimentally driven.

Driving positions were more upright and the issue was at the base of the spine. Most drivers suffered some sort of lower tailbone severe bruising at the very least.
The current driving position, more akin to lying down on the job, with feet up higher, is the result of testing and work done during the Mosley era mid 90's research to determine the 'safest' and most survivable position during an major accident.

[VIVA GT]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

The system (which includes more than the accelerometers) measures all directions of head movement including - 'the exact forces on the head to a given displacement, the elongation of the neck, how it engages with the headrests, how the headrests perform and what we need to do to produce the next generation cockpit environment.'

From the makers of the in-ear device - 'The three spring-riders are mounted at different orientations to respond to motion in three directions: forwards-backwards, left-right and up-down.' and 'For head impacts in Formula One the measurements peak at 400g across all three axes'

Thanks for the explanation.
In that case the data from these sensors would be very useful in that case (and could make interesting reading comparing the effect on different drivers/from different cars).

[billy bleach]

The worry is that teams get used to winning There will be staff at Mercedes who have never known the current situation Teams like McLaren, Ferrari, Renault even Redbull have taken years to get back on the front foot after a period on dominance

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by VIVA GT

Just a question about the accelerometers that the drivers 'wear'. Are they fully three-dimensional? Meaning do they measure movement in all directions, or are they mainly there to measure the severe deceleration that may occur during a sudden stop experienced during a crash?
What I'm trying to ask is do they measure the up & down bouncing?

crmalcolm already answered, but I will add that I assume they are using MEMS solutions which can be made VERY small (less than a cubic millimeter in size!) with a single device able to measure 3 axis acceleration.



Richard

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by Richard Casto

crmalcolm already answered, but I will add that I assume they are using MEMS solutions which can be made VERY small (less than a cubic millimeter in size!) with a single device able to measure 3 axis acceleration.



Richard

I'm not sure if the device has moved on - but the first implementation was a MEMS from ST Microelectronics:




The project was led by FIA Institute research consultant Andy Mellor, who said :"The resulting sensor is based on a platform part that ST mass-produces for smartphones."
Marco Ferraresi, business development manager for ST Motion MEMS in automotive and custom industrial applications, explains: “The FIA Institute’s specification for the accelerometer was that it had to be very small to fit into the ear canal and we were able to produce that kind of miniaturisation."

[chillibowl]

Originally Posted by billy bleach

The worry is that teams get used to winning There will be staff at Mercedes who have never known the current situation Teams like McLaren, Ferrari, Renault even Redbull have taken years to get back on the front foot after a period on dominance

interesting point.

to add, one of the ramifications of the budget cap was that a lot of staff was either reassigned (i assume to other Daimler divisions) or let go.

so if there are concerns of lack of experience and/or institutional knowledge among the current team, then is the problem amplified by the staffing reorganization also going on these past couple of years?

[Tourer]

Mercedes hope that updates will be ready for Miami that could be a first step to fixing the current problems.

It'll be something else to keep an eye on at Miami.

[S griffin]

Hopefully for Merc's sake it will put them back up the front again or at least among the front two or three rows on the grid

[Tourer]

There has been much in the press that the Spanish GP this weekend will be "make or break" for Mercedes small pod design - more on that in this Autosport article today.
We're at yet another GP where the "will they, won't they" (be competitive) for Mercedes adds further interest to what is happening at the front.

Of course, we're guaranteed the same thing at Monaco where the "make or break" regarding Mercedes will at the very least be around Lewis and jewelry (still find all that hilarious - just remove the bloody jewelry Lewis - not really that big a deal surely).

The questions, intrigue and drama continue - no sign of dominating again though, not yet anyway.

[chunterer]

Couple of stories going around that Merc want to supply one less team from next year.

Aston or Williams?

Williams makes more sense as they would likely do a deal for Renault engines and get Piastri to boot?

[E.B]

Originally Posted by chunterer

Couple of stories going around that Merc want to supply one less team from next year.

Aston or Williams?

Williams makes more sense as they would likely do a deal for Renault engines and get Piastri to boot?

I thought Williams had a contract in place through to 2025.

Something in my head tells me I read that AM were considering going to their own engine.... albeit not until the new engine regs down the track. Not sure what their contractual situation is.

Im also aware that AMs road division use Merc engines as well so.....

** Totally unfounded rumour dept..... Piastri to McLaren with Alpine engines!**

[chunterer]

Yes it'll be very interesting to see how this all pans out.

[GTRMagic]

I dont think a smaller engine supply load will stop their W13 from banging their drivers around like they were on a bouncy castle
You actually have to hand it to the 2 pilots... to be able to suck speed out of it, and still be faster than some cars, when it looks awful from the outside, and even worse on the inside... a minor miracle they arent binning more chassis

Almost time to give up on the W13 sidepod-free concept?

[tux]

I see we are at the point of Mercedes saying "Change the rules, porpoising is unsafe"

[V8 Fireworks]

Originally Posted by tux

I see we are at the point of Mercedes saying "Change the rules, porpoising is unsafe"

Yet contradictorily, Hamilton said in the post-qualifying interview that the team and driver are choosing to deliberately run the car "low and hard" to get downforce at the expense of having porpoising.

So it seems Mercedes are fully able to reduce or eliminate porpoising but are choosing not to.

[tux]

Originally Posted by V8 Fireworks

Yet contradictorily, Hamilton said in the post-qualifying interview that the team and driver are choosing to deliberately run the car "low and hard" to get downforce at the expense of having porpoising.

So it seems Mercedes are fully able to reduce or eliminate porpoising but are choosing not to.

Yeah, they know how to stop it but it makes them slower, thats on them...

Just to add the context, it was this interview from Russell where he says that its "dangerous & a matter of time before something goes wrong"

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/r.../10320567/amp/

[bathurst77]

most teams have managed to keep the porpoising to an acceptable level while achieving competitive performance.
Mercedes have shown they can control it, and they have shown they can have performance, just not both together.
Also Gorgeous George seems to cope better than Lewis

This is why F1 is the pinnacle. Cars and drivers pushing everything to the absolute limit, and coming up with new ideas to get that edge. Sometimes mastering it, sometimes failing completely and having to come up with something else

Its not up to the sport to change to suit a few drivers or teams, its up to the teams and drivers to find the solution and adapt

[P38 in workshop]

Originally Posted by tux

Yeah, they know how to stop it but it makes them slower, thats on them...

Just to add the context, it was this interview from Russell where he says that its "dangerous & a matter of time before something goes wrong"

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/r.../10320567/amp/

The corollary of downforce is drag.You don't get one without the other and Toto Wolff said yesterday that they are carrying too much drag.The in car stream showing Hamilton's head being violently shaken was a strong condemnation of the car's setup.What might be a bigger challenge for the team will be solving the problem within the spending cap.In former times they could throw money and resources at the car until a very good solution was found.Now it will take a much more creative approach to bring about a solution without breaching the limit.It cold be time to poach some design staff with experience of doing things the Force India way.

[VIVA GT]

I'm also wondering if this bouncing problem is not being helped by the much lower profile tyres? The sidewalls will have so much less 'give' in them and combined with stiff suspension the cars just don't ride the/any bumps so well.
(I do appreciate that other teams aren't suffering the problem to such a degree as Mercedes but I'm wondering if the new, low profile tyres are adding to it).

[S griffin]

I was thinking Merc would have got the problem sorted by now, so it's a mystery why it's still doing it. But I still think they will get this problem sorted sometime

[TrapezeArtist]

Originally Posted by P38 in workshop

The in car stream showing Hamilton's head being violently shaken was a strong condemnation of the car's setup.

Even worse was hearing the car rhythmically banging on the road. No wonder he was in such a state after the race.

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by VIVA GT

I'm also wondering if this bouncing problem is not being helped by the much lower profile tyres? The sidewalls will have so much less 'give' in them and combined with stiff suspension the cars just don't ride the/any bumps so well.
(I do appreciate that other teams aren't suffering the problem to such a degree as Mercedes but I'm wondering if the new, low profile tyres are adding to it).

My 2 cents is that it wouldn't make a difference. I think this is less about the low profile tires and more about the characteristics for running the underbody wing optimally.

The total "spring" package is both the level of sidewall flex (the tires act like springs) plus the suspension itself. So you can have lots of sidewall flex (soft tire spring) and stiff suspension springs, or less sidewall flex (stiff tire spring) and soft suspension springs and it is generally the same. (That is a massive simplification, but I think it is generally true)

Prior aero (front and rear wing) was probably less sensitive to ride high variances than the new underbody setup. So I assume the optimal window for ride height is much smaller. So the cars are probably just overall more stiffly sprung than before? So yeah, the really can't ride the curbs as effectively as before.

Originally Posted by S griffin

I was thinking Merc would have got the problem sorted by now, so it's a mystery why it's still doing it. But I still think they will get this problem sorted sometime

I think it really boils down to money. Mercedes is clawing it's way up to the bottom of the front pack Look at all of the other teams who still are not as fast as the Mercedes. Just like them, Mercedes probably needs more money to engineer their way out of this situation. I suspect the Mercedes aero is just overall a flawed design. Lots of trick ideas (like the small sidepods) that maybe just didn't work as expected.

I think they will figure it out, but how long will it take? Lets face it, we are approaching half way through the season. Mercedes should take a hard look at what is going on with the 2022 car and consider abandoning it and bring forward a C-spec that is really a 2023 car and using 2022 races to develop their 2023 car. I think them starting on the wrong foot this year is going to bleed over into next year even if they figure it out before end of this season. Money spent on solving porpoising is money not spent making the car faster in general.

As to the issues with drivers having physical pain and injury with the porpoising, Mercedes probably could setup the car to mitigate it (and not pound their drivers to death), but also by sacrificing performance. They are just loathe to do so.

Richard

[chillibowl]

while he seems adamant that he will not miss Canada next week but with 15 races left and no solution to the problem yet will LH compete in every race this season?

with almost 100 points clear of Mclaren, who themselves are struggling, i would think they have already decided on a c-spec/2023 focus approach already right?

of course they could still catch Ferrari and there is money in doing that but i suspect getting back to fighting for 1st is a much bigger priority to them then chasing a 2nd place this year.

[steve_r]

If they actually find a solution to the porpoising, like they seemed to have done in Barcelona then you could see that they are not far off the pace of the front 2 teams. Barcelona seemingly was a false dawn though. Perhaps they will have more success at the flat Tilkedromes later in the season.

The fact that Russell currently has 2/3rd of the points of Verstappen in the WDC is pretty miraculous considering the problems they are having with their car, and if Merc' somehow found a magic wand solution to the porposing (unlikely I know) then he would actually not be out of the running for this years drivers title.

[chillibowl]

Originally Posted by steve_r

The fact that Russell currently has 2/3rd of the points of Verstappen in the WDC is pretty miraculous considering the problems they are having with their car, and if Merc' somehow found a magic wand solution to the porposing (unlikely I know) then he would actually not be out of the running for this years drivers title.

i would say his results are flattered by a few no scores by Max earlier in the season and more recently some 0 pts weekends from Charles.

so for me, im already hitting the 2022 eject button...which is just one of many many reasons the would never pay me the big bucks!

but with 15 races left and with the consistency GR has been showing so far who knows. perhaps too early to write this season off.