Argentine Touring Car Series 2022

[NaBUru38]

Oh damn.

[mountainstar]

I have followed these series via forums and racing magazines with perhaps the odd video found here and there. But recently discovered all the series are pretty much available on Youtube, some live, so I have been watching it.

TC and TC Pick Up seems to me to be the most exciting of all of them. I have thought the racing to be pretty good. All the TC series seem to be the best supported in Argentina.

TC2000 doesn't seem to be as big as it was back in the 2000s and 2010s. I don't know enough to know what is going on there as to why that is. The racing seems ok but not spectacular. It just seems a bit stale to what I remember from years ago.

Top Race seems ok, I'd have to watch that more. I guess some of the teams have factory support? The cars don't seem to move around much but seem to have more speed than the other series.

I found the Turismo Nacional series. That seems to be a second tier series but some of the wheel to wheel racing is not bad.

At some point I would like to come down and see all this in person.

Overall it is surprising how much racing goes on in Argentina considering the constant financial stuff going on.

[TuteZaek]

Some good news, Honda/Puma Racing seems commited to the SUV transition (Both the terminal and the team comented on that) so, there's a light at the end, maybe.

[TuteZaek]

Originally Posted by mountainstar

At some point I would like to come down and see all this in person.

Overall it is surprising how much racing goes on in Argentina considering the constant financial stuff going on.

First thing: You should, the mood is incredible and, at least the ACTC series, there is nothing there that sounds like it in person.

And for the financial stuff, i'm an argentinean, we aren't as bad as we always paint it, we're just average, but noisy and dramatic.

On the series coments: Pretty much you nailed it, and both TR and TC2000 just came from really bad administrations and now reside on a single company (Tango, also did CARX, but they seem to abandon that series) and they're trying to crawl back to relevance, but imho both together are a bit to much for the company, specially with the fans exigences over TC2000.

[uesugi kenshin]

Originally Posted by TuteZaek

Some good news, Honda/Puma Racing seems commited to the SUV transition (Both the terminal and the team comented on that) so, there's a light at the end, maybe.

Wouldn't TCR be the best direction for Tc2000 to go, there are already quite a few cars in the country.

[TuteZaek]

Originally Posted by uesugi kenshin

Wouldn't TCR be the best direction for Tc2000 to go, there are already quite a few cars in the country.

There is always the posibility.

BUT Imho the TCR model doesn't fit the Argentine idionsincracy/model

Esentially the TCR is a client formula (and when manufacturers enter, they mess the thing up) with the factories mostly in europe/asia, and the centralized bop will be a big problem... if the TN suffers with the massive drama about the balance of the cars even when the governing body is right there with the teams, drivers and cars, now imagine the same but with a governing body for the ruleset that is on other continent.
And, also, the teams want to build their cars and have the control, the client teams model isn't really a thing in the country, exists, but is a really minor thing.
In fact, when the TC2000 transitioned to the Super, and outsorced their engines overseas is where so many of the problems started to appear with the cars, when Berta was in charge there was almost never engine drama (in fact, those same engines still are runing, both on TC2000 series and on TRSeries/Junior with different tunning)

The problem isn't about the cars, but the management of the series, the cars are ok.

[mountainstar]

Originally Posted by TuteZaek

First thing: You should, the mood is incredible and, at least the ACTC series, there is nothing there that sounds like it in person.

And for the financial stuff, i'm an argentinean, we aren't as bad as we always paint it, we're just average, but noisy and dramatic.

On the series coments: Pretty much you nailed it, and both TR and TC2000 just came from really bad administrations and now reside on a single company (Tango, also did CARX, but they seem to abandon that series) and they're trying to crawl back to relevance, but imho both together are a bit to much for the company, specially with the fans exigences over TC2000.

Well these days the US dollar is back to being strong so it makes it advantageous to travel overseas.

I'm watching TC2000 right now and just watched Top Race, I guess from last weekend. The thing I am noticing with Top Race is the cars do seem pretty fast with some get up and go, but the driving standards or abilities seem a little more lacking. Maybe it's the cars but in TC it looks like the drivers are better at giving each other racing room or being able to race wheel to wheel without having stupid crashes into one another. The Top Race race I watched I kept seeing dumb accidents. TC2000, the cars seem nimble and quick but not as exciting in terms of racing each other.

One thing I do like is in Argentina a lot of the tracks look wide compared to some road courses around the world, which to me is good because it opens up some options to take other lines or race wheel to wheel.

I'll keep watching and learning.

[TuteZaek]

The TC drivers (together with the Top TC2000 ones that dont race both, like Barrio, Llaver and Montenegro) aré agurably the best on the country, that shows when, for example they dominated TR for a while, and now do the same on TN (exeptions here: Gastón Rossi, Mat?*as Russo on TR and Chapur on TN have enough credentials to be consideres among them)

As for the cars: as?*de the TN ones, the TR are the slowest, mostly coming from a directive to not outshine the old superTC2000, next year It will change with a move to Coyote V8s
As of now they're slower than a TCR (mostly on the tires, that suck)

About the tracks, i think we're spoiled... We always find them "too narrow"

[NaBUru38]

Top Race currently has barely any top driver. Compare with 2009, when it had Pechito López, Pato Silva, Canapino, Rossi, Fontana, Furlán, De Benedictis, Spataro, Omar Mart?*nez...


Turismo Nacional races are always thrilling, no exception.


The issue for me with the TC is the cars are so ugly. I loved the 2003 TC2000 tuner-style cars.

[NaBUru38]

I just caught up with Satrasca's highlights videos


Turismo Nacional Clase 3 at Trelew: https://twitter.com/Satrasca1/status...34821087010816


Turismo Nacional Clase 2 at Trelew: https://twitter.com/Satrasca1/status...84148519178241


TC2000 at Alta Gracia: https://twitter.com/Satrasca1/status...31025626533888

[TuteZaek]

The C2 one ending indentifies me, we were talking nonsense, and went totally silent without even breathing watching them.

[mountainstar]

Originally Posted by TuteZaek

The TC drivers (together with the Top TC2000 ones that dont race both, like Barrio, Llaver and Montenegro) aré agurably the best on the country, that shows when, for example they dominated TR for a while, and now do the same on TN (exeptions here: Gastón Rossi, Mat?*as Russo on TR and Chapur on TN have enough credentials to be consideres among them)

As for the cars: as?*de the TN ones, the TR are the slowest, mostly coming from a directive to not outshine the old superTC2000, next year It will change with a move to Coyote V8s
As of now they're slower than a TCR (mostly on the tires, that suck)

About the tracks, i think we're spoiled... We always find them "too narrow"

How did Turismo Nacional come about? I don't remember ever hearing of it before this year. I don't know how well supported it is by fans or commercially with sponsors or manufacturers. The racing seems pretty close and I think it is because the cars don't have any aero.

Top Race looks fast but I guess not.

One thing that stands out is all the cars in these series are plastered with a lot of sponsor stickers. The commercial side of the sport I always find interesting. Do these teams and series actually get legitimate sponsor and car manufacturer support? How much does it cost a team to run a car in these series?

[mountainstar]

Originally Posted by NaBUru38

Top Race currently has barely any top driver. Compare with 2009, when it had Pechito López, Pato Silva, Canapino, Rossi, Fontana, Furlán, De Benedictis, Spataro, Omar Mart?*nez...

Turismo Nacional races are always thrilling, no exception.

The issue for me with the TC is the cars are so ugly. I loved the 2003 TC2000 tuner-style cars.

What is interesting with TC is they continue to run 50 year old silhouettes of old cars which goes against everything else in the world that always pursues the latest and greatest.

[TuteZaek]

Originally Posted by mountainstar

What is interesting with TC is they continue to run 50 year old silhouettes of old cars which goes against everything else in the world that always pursues the latest and greatest.

And a pair (soon to be a trio) of Camrys

That said, those cars are a technical marvel in a sense, like "we want traditional carburetors" with stupid high revying DOHC long stroke engines.*


* One of the most persistent myths of today TC is that the Tornado engine (Jeep Tornado Interceptor, a truck engine) of the Torinos would kill everything, and thats why isn't in use** when in truth, the engine couldn't run on the regimes the actual engines are running.

**Some of it was true, in the 70s when the engine was the only with OHV and somewhat bigger than the other l6s of the compenting offers.
Today every engine is fully DOHC running over 7800 and closing 9000 rpms (in fact the chevy engine is more efective over 9000, but is was limited for bop reasons, the idea was to be the high speed-high revying one, oposed to the more "bottom-power" (7800rpm and up... really??) Ford and Cherokees (an AMC XJ 4.0 derived block, used by Dodge, Torino and Toyota)

[FIRE]

Originally Posted by mountainstar

What is interesting with TC is they continue to run 50 year old silhouettes of old cars which goes against everything else in the world that always pursues the latest and greatest.

Somehow TC remind me of NASCAR Whelen modifieds.

[FIRE]

Originally Posted by uesugi kenshin

Wouldn't TCR be the best direction for Tc2000 to go, there are already quite a few cars in the country.

Off-topic but TCR Brasil will be support series of Stock Car Pro.

[FIRE]

My favorite Argentinian series was always (Super) TC2000 but in recent years this moved to TN class 3 and TC. Also TCPK up is a great series.

Purely based on look of the cars I go for TC2000 and TCPK.


Top Race should have the same technical rules as Stock Car Pro series.

[TuteZaek]

Originally Posted by FIRE

Somehow TC remind me of NASCAR Whelen modifieds.

Let me introduce you to TC bonaerense (and a lot of other regional series) cars


Want an old body style racing today?


Yes, there is a lot of series in argentina beside the already crowded "national level" ones

[TuteZaek]

There is a weird schism as today's race...

With Urcera's pole and good form overall from all the MaquinParts cars (1st Urcera, Todino 2nd and Ardusso 3rd) the chances for the fabled Torino championship are skyrocketing...

But the driver with most chances for doing such feat, Urcera, isn't the most loved of the paddock, with some controversies under his belt and not a lot of the charisma of the other "top drivers"

So, the question on the fanbase is Torino for the win even if its Urcera?

[uesugi kenshin]

Seems strange, Canapino dominates the season, but in the playoffs Werner is winning all the races.

[mountainstar]

I was watching one of the TC races today, I should have turned on subtitles on YT, but it looked like Canapino just couldn't keep up so he got off the gas and just coasted. Then I think the Werner dude got ****ed off about something so he stormed off and missed the podium, so he should be fined for bad sportsmanship. But decent race overall.

[TuteZaek]

Originally Posted by mountainstar

I was watching one of the TC races today, I should have turned on subtitles on YT, but it looked like Canapino just couldn't keep up so he got off the gas and just coasted. Then I think the Werner dude got ****ed off about something so he stormed off and missed the podium, so he should be fined for bad sportsmanship. But decent race overall.

Werner, actual defending champion fighting for the third championship in a row, was penalized after winning for track limits in a maneuver where Urcera (Eventual Winner of the race and points leader over Werner, after this race) also did touch the blue part, even if a bit less(as a lot of others did, like Canapino who later had engine problems, ran in 5 cylinders for a few laps)
Even then Werner actually went to the Podium, but was really ****ed.

Urcera then did some hand signs to **** off Werner's fans and... well, lets say that before this he wasn't the most liked of the drivers, now everyone hate him even more.

And now everyone is kinda ****ed at the race officials, so another week in argentine racing.

[TuteZaek]

Originally Posted by uesugi kenshin

Seems strange, Canapino dominates the season, but in the playoffs Werner is winning all the races.

Different chassis for both of them, Canapino's old car was a monster built by his father, don't know why the JP Carrera team and him choose the change.

In Werner's case, the chasis used at the start of the championship was a weird one, suposedly a "revolutionary" chasis made for Santero, was built by two different shops across during more than a year (after some problems between the team and the original builder)
Santero tested the car, but never used it, then Cifre (from TC pista) bought it and rented it to Werner as a provisory chassis while his new car was being built
(The old 2021 championship winner chassis was sold to Lugon, from TC Pista, who will have to exchange it with the ACTC for a brand new one, since championship chassis go to the ACTC Museum)

[NaBUru38]

Originally Posted by mountainstar

How did Turismo Nacional come about? I don't remember ever hearing of it before this year. I don't know how well supported it is by fans or commercially with sponsors or manufacturers.

The TN debuted in 1961. Like the TC, it's run as a drivers association. The TN has had ups and downs. Originally it featured both circuit and rally races, including the Gran Premio de Turismo, a 4,000 km odyssey.

Champions include Leonel Pernia, Mariano Werner, Matias Rossi, Emanuel Moriatis, Esteban Tuero, Patricio di Palma, Carlos Reutemann, Gabriel Raies, Jorge Recalde, Oscar Fineschi.

Originally Posted by mountainstar

One thing that stands out is all the cars in these series are plastered with a lot of sponsor stickers. The commercial side of the sport I always find interesting. Do these teams and series actually get legitimate sponsor and car manufacturer support? How much does it cost a team to run a car in these series?

Big logos don't necessarily mean big money.

[TuteZaek]

Originally Posted by mountainstar

One thing that stands out is all the cars in these series are plastered with a lot of sponsor stickers. The commercial side of the sport I always find interesting. Do these teams and series actually get legitimate sponsor and car manufacturer support? How much does it cost a team to run a car in these series?

The sponsorship thing was always something like we see now, in fact a lot of legendary drivers in the past drove thanks to "peñas", local organizations made the exclusive role of covering the season/car of a driver using a lot of local bussines as help as well as raffles, partys and the like, and was usually a big thing of pride for the town so they included a big decal with the name of said place normally on the windshield or the bonnet of the car.

It's not normal to have whole teams with big sponsors in TC, TN or TR, while it is more common on TC2000, usually from petrol companies.
In TC instead, most of the sponsors come from the agricultural bussines (both now and before, with names like Speedagro, Agrospray, Cargil, Don Roque, Agco-Allis to name a few both older and current)
That said, most of the sponsorship is driver based not team, with TC2000 and some TC teams as exceptions, in the later case, Dowen Paggio is now sponsoring the whole Guri Martinez team, Herramientas Coiro sponsoring the Dole Team and finally YPF doing the same with TGR



Image of a Ford Falcon "sponsored" by the Quilmes Automovil Club, one of the longest running peñas, their last TC driver was Acuña in 2006.


In terms of costs, i think the TC and TC2000 are somewhat equivalent with a season of TC being a little more expensive (last i heard), but it seems more sustainable and has the better structure in place for private drivers, while TC2000 is designed for the "Works teams" ecosystem and now is in a big struggle
The numbers of cars on both paint an interesting picture, with TC being an invitation/progression series (You have to have 100 races on an ACTC series before entering, or being champion on one of them) but having 50ish cars/drivers planned for 2023 again and the TC 2000, an open series, struggling with less than 20 cars...
Furlan (Retired Driver who is kinda against ACTC, never raced on TC) earlier this year comented "An invitation only series should not have a national champion" and a journalist asked "If the invitational series has 50 drivers and the open one is struggling, who's at fault?"