C-Type crash at Goodwood?

[Muzza]

And Jim Clark had a very scary moment in Reims in 1966... Clark's Lotus was at more than 300 km/h when, coming down the La Garenne descent, when a bird hit his face with full force.

This happened during the Thursday practice session for the French GP. Clark - in another display of his supreme skills, somehow managed to coast and stop the car - he even drove the Lotus all the way to the boxes, very slowly.

With his face covered in blood and his right eye completely closed, Clark had to sit out of that race, and was subbed by Pedro Rodriguez.

Other cases of pilots beinh hit in the face by stones (some to the point of being obliged to abandon the race, with cuts and even pierced goggles) were common in the 1960s in tracks like Reims and Clermont Ferrand.

And Helmut Marko lost the sight on his left eye when he was hit by a stone thrown by Emerson Fittipaldi's Lotus in the 1972 French GP, also in Clermont Ferrand.

[JustinDawkins]

The worst part for Marko was that he was whearing a full face helmet! This was in the days before the visors were bullet-proof(thanks Jackie).

[rkshanahan]

It is sad to hear a Brit(simon drabble) complain about living in a "nanny state"--I had hoped the nanny state was strictly a US phenomenon. I will leave the topic of personal responsibility for another day.
Robs, you asked about the advice we recieved on shoulder harnesses and rollover bars. I had three military crash investigators(two American and one British) in the shop and they were unanimous about shoulder harnesses even without a rollover bar. They gave these reasons:
1. Plan for the most common accident. For every rollover there must be 50 frontal impacts.
2. Rollovers are usually low-energy impacts.
3. The human neck is amazingly flexible and not likely to be broken even in a rollover.
These guys all deal with ground vehicles as well as aircraft and the Brit volunteers at Silverstone as track doctor, so I had to give some weight to their advice, but I would be interested in other opinions.

[Andrew Kitson]

Here's hoping that Rupert makes a full recovery soon.
I personally think it should be left to the driver if he wants to race with an open helmet or not. It is afterall his choice if he wants to race, the type of car he wants to compete in, etc. He knows the risks.
An interesting comparison was the fantastic Whitsun Trophy race. Sytner in the ex-Hobbs Lola T70 looked just right with his open face helmet and goggles - exactly as I remember the drivers in these cars in the Guards Trophy -mid 60s at Brands. Simon Hadfield however wore his full face helmet in the Lotus 30. It still looked great but Frank somehow comletely looked the part. Leave it to the individual to decide please.

[ROBSL]

Does anyone know of how to obtain goggles with bullit proof glass?
This would be my natural choice for 60's single seat and open top cars.
ROBSL

[Stephen Green]

Why can't you use laminated glass, surely that would be effective?

[Tim Falce]

My team mate races with open face and goggles, his are laminated or shatter proof.

[ghinzani]

Originally posted by Muzza


And Helmut Marko lost the sight on his left eye when he was hit by a stone thrown by Emerson Fittipaldi's Lotus in the 1972 French GP, also in Clermont Ferrand.

wasnt it Ronnie rather than Emerson?

[Muzza]

Hello, Ghinzani,

Good to hear from you - I enjoy your postings.

I am not absolutely sure about which car threw up the stones that hit Marko in the 1972 French GP, but the reports I read mentioned Emerson Fittipaldi.

Unfortunately my files are spread over different locations and I am unable to verify that now, but if I am not mistaken I read this on an issue of the Brazilian magazine Quatro Rodas of the time.

Maybe someone else would be able to shed more light over this accident.

Regards,


Muzza

[Woolley]

The "It's the driver's choice" argument is only valid if the driver is making a fully informed choice. As a marshal I've seen many helmets with damage to the chin guard that would almost certainly have caused serious injury with an open helmet. I have also seen the results of a collicion between unprotected chin and steering wheel. Finally, imagine being in a car on fire for the 15-30 seconds it may take for a fire extinguisher to arrive and ask yourself how much protection your open helmet gives you from that (even with a balclava).Were I ever to race I would not consider anything less than a full face helmet with visor, whatever my vehicle.

[ghinzani]

Originally posted by Muzza
Hello, Ghinzani,

Good to hear from you - I enjoy your postings.

I am not absolutely sure about which car threw up the stones that hit Marko in the 1972 French GP, but the reports I read mentioned Emerson Fittipaldi.

Unfortunately my files are spread over different locations and I am unable to verify that now, but if I am not mistaken I read this on an issue of the Brazilian magazine Quatro Rodas of the time.

Maybe someone else would be able to shed more light over this accident.

Regards,


Muzza

Muzza - thanks
You may well be right on that fact, according to this 8w article: http://8w.forix.com/marko.html
However for some reason I remember hearing it was Peterson. Reading the article it seems such a shame, especially as he had qualified 6th on the first occasion BRM had given him a decent car. Add in the fact that his friend Helmut Koennig was to perish a couple of years later needlessly and you can appreciate why Marko perhaps has a terrifying reputation within the industry, caused perhaps by a degree of bitterness! Was Markus Hottinger also a protege of his? add in Wendlinger (and his accident that robbed F1 of a very promising driver) and you can perhaps understand why he has a reputatioon for being so hard on drivers and employees (at least at RSM Marko).

[Muzza]

Hello, Ghinzani,

Yes, poor Austrians - it is striking the number of brilliant drivers from that country that had their career (and, in the case of many, too many ones, their lives) shortened by accidents. Rindt, Marko, Lauda (who recovered from his terrible crash in 1976 to soldier on to two world titles), Höttinger (a great driver by all accounts), Ratzenberger, Wendlinger, Köinigg, Gartner...

I am not sure whether Marko deserves this reputation of being an iron fist - what I know is that he has always been a very organized and methodic man. This was shown since his early years, when he was the "better behaved" member of the group of rich and crazy teens, headed by Jochen Rindt, that drove the city of Graz crazy for years. I remember that he actually decided to juggle between his career and Law school, and this is one of the reasons for allowing him to bloom only years later than Rindt (also, Rindt, heir to a wealthy family, had more money to burn up the racing ladder - and Marko has conceded that Jochen was more talented than him).

However, I do know that he has been left behind by a number of people when he was a team principal, and he saw this as a reason (or an excuse, the devil's advocates may say) to regroup control of most activities around himself. I understand that Marko was particularly disappointed when Dietrich Mateschitz - Red Bull owner and motorsport enthusiast - apparently did not fulfil some (verbal?) agreements with him, and this was fundamental for the demise of RSM Marko.

[fangio]

Interesting discussions!
I use my own rule, always a closed helmet in an open car and when I drive a modern GT (with lots more speed than most Historics) again I only use a closed helmet.
Most GT's have good protection and good roll-bars so there's no prblem there, but with open Historic cars I guess, as Robs says it's up to the driver how he feels about it.
Most open Historics look just horrible with roll bars; I guess the only cars that could be fitted with a reasonable roll-bar are the ones that had one from the start, to be replaced with a more hefty one.
I agree with Rob Shanahan that driving without belts is not an alternative. (Nigel will not agree!)

[simon drabble]

You are not allowed to race with a belt and no rollbar. Rollbars car be made to look ok, Cobra's look fine with them. The US style ones admittedly do look ugly but a simple hoop will be sufficient. That is all I have.

[ROBSL]

I had understood that the Goodwood 'C' accident had a driver with belts and no roll hoop. Also Spencer Flack had belts? (The BRM P25 ios somewhat higher but not in anyway a substantial frame.
ROBSL

[simon drabble]

I stand corrected although the single seaters I think might be different
I was under the impression that you had both or nothing. Personnally I think you must need to have yr head examined to strap in with no rollbar as you have the worst of both worlds

[Teletubby]

He had no belts and no roolbar.

[D-Type]

First things first: Can anybody give us a status report on Rupert?

Second things second: Can anybody suggets any ideas to pevent a repitition? The issues of full face/open helmets and belts and roll bars MUST be left with the drivers - we must recognise that it is up to them. As to the design of gravel traps, that is best left to the powers that be at Goodwood. Elsewhere it is more of a problem as what is suitable for a 2003 car is not necessarily suitable for a 1953 (give or take 10 years).
The last thing we (whether enthusiasts like myself or participants) want is more restrictions, but we must ensure things are made as safe as prcticable (not the same as possible!) What we must avoid is a knee-jerk reaction and make sure that any decision is made dispassionately.

Having had my rant, the key issue is that I hope that Rupert is on the mend!

[Tim Falce]

First things first: Can anybody give us a status report on Rupert?
I read earlier this week that he is still in a serious condition but expected to pull through, I hope he has improved since.

[Dan Friel]

Apparently Rupert is making every effort to make a decent recovery, although remains in a serious condition.

I guess we need to keep out fingers crossed and wish Rupert all the best.