2011 Sebring Audi R-15's (thread currently closed)

[Bill38]

The press release for the new R-18 states that Audi will use the R-15 at Sebring. What changes will Audi have to make to the R-15?

[chernaudi]

Originally Posted by Bill38

The press release for the new R-18 states that Audi will use the R-15 at Sebring. What changes will Audi have to make to the R-15?

Not entirely known, as the 2011 R15 hasn't been seen yet, but it will run the wider front tires that the R18 uses and will probably be restricted to 2011 LMP1 power levels.

And on account of the wide fronts, it'll probably run the R18's front diffuser and suspension bits.

[Tim the Grey]

I wonder just how much R18 they CAN use at Sebring? It is regarded as a car breaker of a track, so it would be useful to Audi to stress test assemblies in the real world.

I would expect the Sebring R15s to have much smaller restictors than their 2010 cousins. Isn't there a fuel tank resize as well for 2011?

[trahsub]

Does anyone know if the R18s would be ready to race by Sebring but Audi is just choosing not to run them? It would be interesting to have them run one R15 and one R18, but I suppose there would be a lot of explaining to do if the R15 spanked the R18.

[gwyllion]

I guess that Audi could bring the R18 to Sebring, but only test it after the race.

[Tim the Grey]

Isn't that pretty much what happened in 2008? Race an R10, test an R15.

[Canada ALMS fan]

I will take any entry from Audi over this year when they raced nothing and then tested the R15+.

[pdxracefan]

Originally Posted by Canada ALMS fan

I will take any entry from Audi over this year when they raced nothing and then tested the R15+.

Amen.

[cmk]

Originally Posted by Tim the Grey

Isn't that pretty much what happened in 2008? Race an R10, test an R15.

Dunno what you're thinking of, Tim, but the R15 was not launched until very shortly before the start of the 2009 racing season, having had limited testing before debuting at Sebring. It definitely wasn't testable in March 08.

I think the only times Audi has run an older car early in the year have been the R8R-R8 and R8-R10 transition years, when the ALMS races between Sebring and Le Mans were contested by the previous year's chassis.

This is a big step up from last year in terms of excitement though! Obviously we will miss out on an early battle between the 2011 contenders, but you can hardly blame Audi for taking measured steps.

[chernaudi]

The Audi R15 will obviously run R18 front wheels/tires and suspension bits, which, if we all remember, the suspension bits were tested on an R15 at Sebring last year.

It'll likely also run the R18's front diffuser, as it's optimized with the wider wheels and tires.

[Lola T70]

Originally Posted by chernaudi

The Audi R15 will obviously run R18 front wheels/tires and suspension bits, which, if we all remember, the suspension bits were tested on an R15 at Sebring last year.

It'll likely also run the R18's front diffuser, as it's optimized with the wider wheels and tires.

Life is not so simple as just bolting on bits from another car that is designed to different regulations. I do not think you can be so sure that any R15 at Sebring will be in the spec you say imo.

Do we know what the regulations for that car would be to balance against the new regs?.

[TF110]

They might as well run with a roof, if the R18 is based anything off the R15(+ or ++). I wonder what this ++ actually will mean? Wide tires in the front, but what else? I expect to see aero close to the R18, that's my bet, might as well use it as a test bed for LeMans, so test some R18 components.

[Tim the Grey]

Sebring aero isn't LM aero.
Suspension, MAYBE.
Otherwise, forget it...

No value at all.

It MAY be that you get an R15 and an R18 testing, after the race. Benchmarking, sort of thing.

[gwyllion]

Originally Posted by TF110

I wonder what this ++ actually will mean? Wide tires in the front, but what else?

Smaller fuel tank and serious power reduction (smaller restrictors and less boost).

[Simmi]

Originally Posted by Tim the Grey

It MAY be that you get an R15 and an R18 testing, after the race. Benchmarking, sort of thing.

I think this is a good shout. I'd thought they might try and have them both running for this purpose. Couldn't hurt.

[TF110]

That's what I mean, no harm in testing, if you think Sebring is a lost race you might as well test during the race, I'm sure Peugeot and others will be on their game, but since Audi isn't bringing out the R18 till Spa, you might as well get some testing done other than the testing days. I guess they could damage the car in some way.

[MulsanneMike]

Originally Posted by Lola T70

Life is not so simple as just bolting on bits from another car that is designed to different regulations. I do not think you can be so sure that any R15 at Sebring will be in the spec you say imo.

Do we know what the regulations for that car would be to balance against the new regs?.

Indeed, especially the aero bits. The new car is quite a bit different aerodynamically than the R15 given it's drawn to lower power regulations and that drives everything aerodynamically.

[chernaudi]

Well, the R15 is being used to test bits for the R18, so it stands to reason that some of the parts intrinsic to the wider tires (front suspension, the more aggressive front diffuser--as it seems to have been designed to R15 principals, aside from being more modular and hopefully more robust) would have to be added just on the principal of the wider wheels/tires.

After all, it seems to be fact that Audi tested the wider wheels and tires on the R15 earlier this year, and will at least modify the profile of the current front diffuser to allow for wheel clearance and to clean up air flow/regain lost downforce.

[The Badger]

Originally Posted by chernaudi

After all, it seems to be fact that Audi tested the wider wheels and tires on the R15 earlier this year, and will at least modify the profile of the current front diffuser to allow for wheel clearance and to clean up air flow/regain lost downforce.

Did they ? Did they go extreme like Acura (Wirth) did ? What did they say about that idea ?

Are Audi still supporting the R10 ? Will Kölles run it again , I have my doubts about that . I would prefer not to see that abortion again !!!

[MulsanneMike]

Originally Posted by chernaudi

Well, the R15 is being used to test bits for the R18, so it stands to reason that some of the parts intrinsic to the wider tires (front suspension, the more aggressive front diffuser--as it seems to have been designed to R15 principals, aside from being more modular and hopefully more robust) would have to be added just on the principal of the wider wheels/tires.

After all, it seems to be fact that Audi tested the wider wheels and tires on the R15 earlier this year, and will at least modify the profile of the current front diffuser to allow for wheel clearance and to clean up air flow/regain lost downforce.

I don't see any connection between the wide tires I presumed Audi tested on the R15+ and the R18 diffuser. Why would Audi go to the design trouble of retrofitting the R18 diffuser onto a car they never intended it to race, just because it fits around the wide tires? Let's over look the fact it's designed for a completely different aero package.

I can fix their problem with the current R15+ diffuser with an angle grinder, a cutoff wheel, and about 10 minutes.

[chernaudi]

If as has been said that Audi has largely consigned the R15 to an R18 test bed, obvioulsy a lot of stuff has been tested on an R15 chassis.

Remember, the Acura to get the f/r aero ballance they wanted, they had to run a more aggressive front diffuser to get the downforce back that the wider tires took away.

In a lot of ways, it seems that Audi has "reused" (read reverse engineered concepts from the R15) as much of the R15 up front as possible on the R18, namely the front crash structure concept and similar methods of attaching the diffuser to the car, even if more robust and durable than on the R15.

I find it a bit counter intuitive that Audi wouldn't upgrade the R15 to fully explore/take advantage of the wider fronts, even if they only currently plan on running the R15 only once next year. If Audi are willing to use R15s as R18 test beds, I'd like to think that they'd do everything short of jerry-rigging a roof on it.

And of course, we can't forget that if it wasn't for financial in-fighting between Audi Germany and Audi of America, R15s would probably run most of the ALMS races next year, and that the updates would be useful for the ALMS as well (though I think that an R18 semi-works customer program might be on the cards for 2012, but who knows if that'll happen at this point).

The counter intuitive part from the car's standpoint being that by doing minimalist mods to the car, that Audi would created a problem after solving one. They've gone with the wider fronts to take advantage of a more even WD and to increase low speed mechanical grip, and issue with the R15 last year. However, the wider tires messing with the diffuser's air flow would cause high speed areo grip problems.

Either Audi is planning to use a version of the R18's diffuser on the R15, or Audi will have larger dive planes for the R15, or they're hoping that the increase in mechanical grip across the board will cancel out any areo grip issues.

But with the "wide" fronts being about 13.75 in., could Audi maybe actually get away with only a few changes to the car's suspension?

[Lola T70]

Originally Posted by chernaudi

If as has been said that Audi has largely consigned the R15 to an R18 test bed, obvioulsy a lot of stuff has been tested on an R15 chassis.

Let's not confuse a car used for testing bits and a racing car used in a 12 hour race.

[TWK]

The idea of "financial infighting" between Audi AG and NA lingers; I don't believe that's an accurate description of Audi racing funding.

AG generally builds/tests, and just this past year and next, takes on "racing operations" in the new ILMC, and previously Le Mans in large part. Other than that, regional subsidiaries race the car in regional series. That's believed to be for their marketing benefit, so it has been from their budget.

For Europe that was recently a consortium of "nationals" (hence Dr. Ulrich's statement about the difficulty of getting that agreement), and previously Audi UK and in the ALMS Audi NA (They reduced their direct costs by finding partners - Champion Racing in NA, and Team Veloqx in Europe, for instance).

In ALMS the Audi NA subsidiary, made the decision AFTER THE 2008 SEASON not to continue the prototype racing program, but rather to direct its marketing dollars elsewhere (including significantly increased advertising). The loss of Champion as a partner certainly contributed. That decision was NOT TEMPORARY, but would have to be REVERSED for the 2011 (or ANY future) program to go forward.

Read Dr. Ulrich's comments earlier this year carefully. It's clear he's publically lobbying for a change in that decision. He didn't get it.

"Infighting" and POLICY are different.

[Tim the Grey]

Sorry, you've lost me here. Where/when/who has said the R15 is testing ANYTHING for the R18?

I said they MAY try some suspension bits n pieces, assuming they fit. Why not.

If you have to make it uniquely, it's not cost effective, surely. Seeing as you would want 2 or 3 at least...

[Lola T70]

[QUOTE=chernaudi;2805862]If as has been said that Audi has largely consigned the R15 to an R18 test bed, obvioulsy a lot of stuff has been tested on an R15 chassis.