Toyota on the way?

[Crash Test]

http://sport.news.com.au/common/stor...E9969,00.html/

-Same old dribble to sell some newspapers, or do you think it is for real this time?

Until I see something definate from the source, I'm going to be a non-believer. What do you think? What sort of impact would you think this would have on the current formula?

[kmchow]

That would be really cool if Toyota did race the Avalon? OTOH, weren't there rumors floating several years ago that Mazda wanted to race their 929 as well? So does the rules presently allow for Toyota to race? I wonder who will sponsor Toyota if they do race? Castrol's always been a long time supporter of Toyota, yet they are already sponsoring a Holden team nowadays??

I recall Toyota is also testing the V8 racing waters in the US, by racing in one of the junior (lower) Nascar sanctioned series with their old style Celica.

[racer69]

I won't believe it till i see it. Wasn't Cochrane saying in Auto Action a few months back that it would be better if it was just Ford and Holden and that he wasn't willing to change rules to allow in new makes. It would be great with a new make, but i don't think they would want to compete using a current engine, and if the rules were change to quad cams and allow 4-5 litre engines, it'd just raise the cost.

[Ray Bell]

Originally posted by kmchow
I wonder who will sponsor Toyota if they do race? Castrol's always been a long time supporter of Toyota, yet they are already sponsoring a Holden team nowadays??

Why would one of the biggest companies in the world need a sponsor?

With a unique car in the field, they'd be much better off with the 'TOYOTA' name emblazoned on it in large letters.

[elephino]

Caltex are the sponsor of the TTA (rally).

Now I'm not going to say if the Toyota thing will happen or not, or whether I want it to or not, but I will say that I don't think that much of Mr Ray Kershaw who wrote the piece. And to be honest I think the Telegraph have agreed and told him to write some more to keep his job.

[Crash Test]

But as per what is being said in the chat room atm, what if Toyota builds themselves a pushrod V8, and a chassis that fits in with the rules, and get themselves a franchise or two, could AVESCO stop them from racing?

[RALFANATOR]

WOW three chioce of makes am I dreaming .If TOYOTA can race the a Toyota motor this would be a best thing for the sport .

In the end I don't care what make it is but if a thrid make comes in with it own motor I 'll get behind it. Depends on drivers of course

[kmchow]

Crashtest wrote:

>But as per what is being said in the chat room atm, what if Toyota >builds themselves a pushrod V8, and a chassis that fits in with the >rules, and get themselves a franchise or two, could AVESCO stop them >from racing?
>
But don't the rules require the pushrod V8 to be based on a production one? Toyota can't just build a pushrod for racing? They actually have to stuff the pushrod V8 into at least a few thousand dealer cars as well to meet homologation rules???

Does Toyota have to buy a franchise like F1? You mean you can't just pay entry fee and qualify fast enough to race? Do you think any of the present teams would jump to Toyota? Doesn't Wayne Gardner race for Toyota in the JGTC sometimes? He raced for them in the past? Would you think he would jump??

[Crash Test]

I'm not sure about the engine, but remember 99.5% of the Holden runners have a Chev engine....

I think they would have to have a franchise, and they could easily buy out one of the existing level one teams. Personally I would think they would need more than one team for obvious testing reasons...

[Ray Bell]

Of course, they would be like every other team and use the Ford diff...

What a joke!

[kmchow]

Crashtest wrote:

>I'm not sure about the engine, but remember 99.5% of the Holden
>runners have a Chev engine....
>
No homologation problem there. Chev is still part of Holden. But currently, none of the Japanese manufacturers (unless you consider Mazda through it's Ford connection) has a pushrod V8 in their production car line up.

I was told that's what has been keeping import automakers away from Nascar. OTOH, recently, in one of the lower/junior Nascar sanctioned series, the organizers have allowed a ohv V6 Celica to race. Of course, it supposedly runs with heavy air restrictors to make it equal to the pushrods. I'm not sure if the Toyota has one a race yet.

[Crash Test]

Another problem is when you add another car to a parity class such as this, the politicking would start up once again....I'm certain everyone has had enough after the last case of the patity attacks last year.

Also, you can have a 3.5L OHV that is the equal of a 5L, but how would that sit with the punters, and the promoters for that matter? What this class is based on is the history of the Ford V Holden, and the fact that the average punter on the street would probably prefer to have a 5L than some 'wimpy' 3.5L...

[kmchow]

There has been talk by Nascar organizers of moving from pushrod to OHV to catch up with the (dealer) showroom, but like Crashtest said, it is a very contentious one.

Would punters/fans accept imports racing in their traditional Aussie (V8 Supercar) or American (Nascar) racing series??? I'm still uncertain about that??? It would be interesting to ask all those fans attending races with the Toyota Celica racing against the traditional American iron!!!

[Ray Bell]

There's no tradition whatever in the V8 stuff. Forever it was a battle between the local cars and the imports, with the locals being the underdog until the seventies, when the rules put fewer mods into the cars and our supercar roadies were the best in the world anyway.

Challengers came and went. Camaros and Sierras and Volvos and Nissans and BMWs and Mustangs, and while the rules were written to benefit the Australian cars (except in the pure Gp C period), there was always that prospect of a challenge. Until now.

And while there are a lot of people who admire the grunt of the large V8, not many want to feed them at $1 a litre, so is it any longer fair to say the people are seeing what they want to drive?

No, the racing has gone back to what it was in the Jaguar days, watching cars much faster than your own racing on a track you'll never grace yourself in a lifetime.

I doubt that the administrators will recognise this reality... or at least admit to it.

[mac]

I'd welcome Toyota and any other manufacturer that wanted to conform to the regs.

[Ray Bell]

Well, you won't have to. They are excluded because they don't make a 5-litre pushrod V8 touring car or engine. Homologation rests entirely with the CAMS, starting with a chassis/body/suspension with at least 25,000 units built inside twelve months. The V8 engine may come from another model built by the same manufacturer, but they must make at least 5000 units within 12 months.

These rules are so specific they even specifically include VL Commodores as a model that's allowed. All others just have to fit the criteria.

[Amaroo Park]

I appluad Toyota's courage for trying to get a car that is even more boring and ugly than the AU Falcon on to the grid. Well Done.......

[Crash Test]

Heeheh....I hope they get Barry Humpries to do the drivering. I remember he/her/it was in a celebrity race once and came a very long last...

[kmchow]

Ray Bell wrote:

>Well, you won't have to. They are excluded because they don't make a >5-litre pushrod V8 touring car or engine. Homologation rests >entirely with the CAMS,
>
It's pure speculation at this point, but I wonder how well a max. of (import) 3.5L V8 OHV (only 2V) would fair against a 5L pushrod?? There's 1.5L of extra displacement(advantage??) for the domestics???

Colinbond wrote:

>I appluad Toyota's courage for trying to get a car that is even more >boring and ugly than the AU Falcon on to the grid. Well Done.......
>
Really, I thought all the cars are fairly equal in the "looks" dept?? Offhand, my vote from "okay looking to ugly" is:
Falcon,Holden,Toyota.

[Ray Bell]

I'm afraid you've missed my point altogether, kmchow.

There is no provision whatever for a 3.5-litre V8 unless it has pushrod valve actuation and no more than two valves per cylinder. None at all!

Should Toyota make such an engine, it will surely be lacking severely in horsepower and the rules are designed to advantage the full five-litre engine size.

The rules confine the cars to that type of engine, and I don't think they'll be changed to allow a 'foreign' make come in and interfere with what is perceived to be Fred-in-the-street's choice of touring car.

I don't say they are right or wrong, this is the way it is. And I suspect it will remain so.

[kmchow]

Ray Bell wrote:

>I'm afraid you've missed my point altogether, kmchow.
>
yeah, I was aware of the rules.

>There is no provision whatever for a 3.5-litre V8 unless it has >pushrod valve actuation and no more than two valves per cylinder. >None at all!
>
Exactly, that's why I was purely/widely speculating/inquiring as to the possible engine equivalency. If a Nascar sanctioned (better than no sanction at all) can introduce a OHV engine, perhaps, a Nascar Winston Cup appearance could appear in a few years. Perhaps if Nascar changes, the V8 Supercar series may follow afterwards?? You can't push such a big change overnight!

Nascar and V8 Supercar are "distant cousins" in terms of racing.

[Amaroo Park]

I dont believe that CAMS writes the rules for V8's anymore i thought it was Cochrane.

[RevCrazy]

Its OHC not OHV that your trying to refer to. Every car is Over Head Valve but not all are Over Head Cam. The last non OHV engine was the Ford Flat Head. Silly Auzzies.

[racer69]

Cochrane would like you to think he writes the rules, but all he really does is voice his opinion. He is responsible for the promotion of the ATCC, CAMS is responsible for the rules and homoligation, CAMS could change the entire formula and championship to GT-P tomorrow if they wanted.

[DAVID PATERSON]

I'm not sure this is correct. If you open your CAMS manual you can read all the rules and regs for every class except V8 Supercars. It simply says, refer to regs published by Avesco.