Rolling Starts in Historic Racing (from Masters Snet thread)

[DaveGT6]

I was present at a huge startline incident at Cadwell which resulted in one driver ending his racing career due to injuries sustained. It was entirely due to standing start and a car bogging down whilst another took to the grass to avoid and ended up cannoning off others and resultant domino effect. I vote for rolling starts in any race that is not a sprint. If you want to do 15 min races fine do standing starts - you may as well do sprints or hill climbs anyway.

What was all that about cooking - lost me? They do cook offs at Indianapolis but I suspect that's not what you're referring to!

[zefarelly]

yummmm cook offs

standing or rolling, you still need to play by the rules! rolling starts seem to suffer more from abuse, from F1 up (think safety car restarts)

[Al Weyman]

I think the problem lies in the fact that certain organising bodies have different interpretation of the rules. I did a couple of rollers at a scratch race at Rockingham and it was defintitely allowed that once the lights went green the race was on and you could overtake before you got to the start finish line and I did however I believe the rolling starts I did in the MN stated that no overtaking before you crossed the start finish line so I think the problem is that there is not one hard and fast rule, sort this out MSA and everyone will know where they stand.

For what its worth I think the first approach is by far the fairer or you can get held back while the leaders get away if you are stuck behind a slow starting car.

[jellison]

This ain't going to change in the UK (good), bar they odd series. Alot more skill involved in a standing start and fighting into that first corner than in a rolling one.

I might think different if I had even been involved in close / bad incident from a standing start. Only one I can think of some burk in a TR6 balls it up off then line and cause two cars to have very big inpacts (at least one a write off), I was tagged but was ok.

Basically the nearer the front you are the less chance of an incident and I have seen very few in many years of racing and watching from the sidelines.

[Richy_Rich]

Yeah, from where I usually am on the grid I have to worry about the ambulance running into the back of me on standing starts, this situation is only marginally ameliorated in rolling starts as now I have to worry about going faster than the ambulance

[jellison]

ameliorated!

I'll hire you the fastest TR4 I know of.

[Al Weyman]

I think prehaps if you had a big horsepower machine on skinny road legal tyres you may have a different attitude to standing starts. If anyone drops oil on the grid like happened to me once at Snet you can find yourself in major trouble, I dropped the clutch and the car just slewed around in front of the whole pack as soon as one wheel got on the oil as I was launching fortunately and somehow everyone avoided me. My last two races I got appaling starts with the wheels just lighting up and lost about 3 or four places on the grid then had to spend the race fighting for them back, gimme a roller anyday.

[jellison]

I think you need to practice your starts.

Narrow tyres - how narrow.

Try 225's with 500bhp

[Moosehead]

430 on 205's. I can generally out start the cars ahead of me on the grid and often have to back off when the gap closes. 6 years of sprinting and hillclimbing said car has taught me well

[zefarelly]

I always start with a 'don't break a halfshaft' attitude, it seems to work over most other strategies, I think 8 places by Madgewick at Goodwood, did similar in the wet at Brands a few yeas ago.

[Richy_Rich]

Originally Posted by Moosehead

430 on 205's. I can generally out start the cars ahead of me on the grid and often have to back off when the gap closes.

Um, isn't the point to overtake them and win? Or is this a rolling start before the arbitrary bit where everyone somehow decides between themselves that it's ok to race?

[esper]

Whatever one thinks. a rolling start with total go at green lights (overtaking permitted when lights are off or green) is safest; when a good racebriefing was performed before the race so everybody knows what to do. That's safest.
Dont look at history , history not always proved to be at use for today decisions. Dont get on to me with that, I am a great fan of Ronnie, but what happened then was another era, sad enough to happen.

[morninggents]

I would still like to know if there has been any study on the safety aspects of standing starts and rolling starts.

Most of the 'safety' arguments against standing starts such as trying to make up places, using the grass, etc., apply equally to rolling or standing starts. I accept that a stalled car on the grid is a real hazzard to those behind but, similarly, a car that is, say, in the wrong gear or suddenly oils a plug is also a hazzard in a rolling start.

On the plus side to rolling starts I concede that it is kinder on old transmissions. On the debit side is that cheating by passing before the race start is harder to detect than a jumped standing start.

[Richy_Rich]

We had a car mistakenly chose reverse on the grid once. Good times! You can't do that in a rolling start...

Generally I don't mind either way though.

[kjw]

Did a rolling start at Hockenheim a couple of weekends ago. 50 plus cars and no problems. Green Light Go and no overtaking until startline. The success of a rolling start is down to the pack bunching up early enough so those at the back can get in position and the pole man controlling the speed, and most importantly all the drivers having the same understanding of the start procedure.

[terence]

I know of several start line shunts resulting in severe body damage,that is just from Snetterton alone! One of those incidents involved a well know Aston driver,the rear of the car was wiped out,all because he had stalled it on the line.

[Moosehead]

Originally Posted by Richy_Rich

Um, isn't the point to overtake them and win? Or is this a rolling start before the arbitrary bit where everyone somehow decides between themselves that it's ok to race?

LOL, standing start. I was trying to emphasise the fact that it is possible with practice to launch a heavy car on relatively narrow tyres. I usually do overtake some but enevitably others close the door yet I probably have an extra 10 -15mph over them.

[DaveGT6]

Originally Posted by Moosehead

LOL, standing start. I was trying to emphasise the fact that it is possible with practice to launch a heavy car on relatively narrow tyres. I usually do overtake some but enevitably others close the door yet I probably have an extra 10 -15mph over them.

Probably because you need a barn door sized space to get your yank tank through!

[MartinSmith]

Originally Posted by morninggents

I would still like to know if there has been any study on the safety aspects of standing starts and rolling starts.

Most of the 'safety' arguments against standing starts such as trying to make up places, using the grass, etc., apply equally to rolling or standing starts. I accept that a stalled car on the grid is a real hazzard to those behind but, similarly, a car that is, say, in the wrong gear or suddenly oils a plug is also a hazzard in a rolling start.

On the plus side to rolling starts I concede that it is kinder on old transmissions. On the debit side is that cheating by passing before the race start is harder to detect than a jumped standing start.

Couple of aspects here I think. Yes, there are dangers with regard to what you have mentioned, motorsport is a dangerous thing, but I dont believe the hazards that you describe quite on the same level as a stalled car on a grid at the point when the lights go off/green etc etc. Im not saying they are not hazards, they are, but, I believe they can be handled safely and more effectively with a rolling start...

Someone having the wrong gear - well considering that the car should be at approximately 40 mph and depending on the circuit, had been for a short while, I would hope the driver knew? if he is in too lower gear, when he gets to the line (when racing SHOULD commence) then he will have to change quicker thats all, if he is too higher gear, when he accelerates it wont be instant true but at least he is going along at the same speed when racing starts, he is not at a standstill and so the following car should/would overtake?....yes he may shunt him, but I doubt it.

Oil dump - depends when it happens, if for example it happens on the pace lap, Observers from the posts etc would phone in the concern and Race control if needbe, would not go for rolling start on that lap, we'd asses the situation, and if need be , abort the start altogether to neutralize the oil hazard, remember, while that lap is happening the SC/Pace car is in constant communication to RC, when that cars lights go out is when the rollling start is confirmed. but, up to the point of exit from the circuit , we can if need be, make it go round again. If it has already exited and between the exit and the start line oil occurs, it would be treated the same as any other hazard of that type.

With regard to cheating by passing is harder to detect, well, with the rolling starts for Masters we watch from RC...we have trained eyes all over the show....we are like coiled springs waiting to pounce on any grass verging, place hoping dirty wotten scoundrel who takes their chance, truthfully, if anyone gets "out of place" we will punish them, I dont believe its harder to spot, we are watching them very closely anyway to make sure its a safe start...if we see it, we will pull the offender its that simple and the same rule will apply to the 360 event.

Yours for the Pro Rolling Start Party lol

[jellison]

F1, MotoGP, WSB, BSB, WTCC, BTCC, DTM ad infinitum, all standing starts.

If you can't hack it, don't do it. A huge amount of the Buz of a "Race" is lost with a roller. With a "Proper" start you have "2" races, a drag race and then straight after a Road race.

[johngee]

Originally Posted by jellison

F1, MotoGP, WSB, BSB, WTCC, BTCC, DTM ad infinitum, all standing starts.

You've quoted championships/series where the drivers don't have to pay for their own damage!
No start is completely free of risk but in 'our kind' of racing, I stick to my opinion that, properly controlled and executed, it the safest, fairest and most mechanically sympathetic option.

[jellison]

Originally Posted by johngee

You've quoted championships/series where the drivers don't have to pay for their own damage!
No start is completely free of risk but in 'our kind' of racing, I stick to my opinion that, properly controlled and executed, it the safest, fairest and most mechanically sympathetic option.

It might be a bit safer, but it is in no way fairer (that is why top series do not have it), and all this stuff about mechanical sympathy! If you car can't take a hard standing start it should NOT be on a Race track.

Race length has nothing to do with it either (in my Book).

Lets agree to disagree.

[MartinSmith]

Originally Posted by jellison

..... and all this stuff about mechanical sympathy! If you car can't take a hard standing start it should NOT be on a Race track.

......

Well...I hope that people dont see it that way....would be a shame

Yes I suppose there are two sides to a coin and we are all entitled to our opinion. I agree to agree to disagree!....(I hope that makes sense!) lol

[SAMD]

Well I have never done a rolling start. But I have started in Reverse! Mk 9 Hewland, reverse is beside 1st. Praise be! the guy behind caught on. Tommy Reid IIRC, (he was very impressed! not!!) So now I stop dead, 5ft behind the line and select 1st and then creep up to the line.

[Simon Hadfield]

I side completely with John and Claire, for cars and drivers of different abilities I feel a "Masters" type rolling start is much safer - and provides far fewer delays to the days programme - a standing start is great if you are among similar cars with standardised engines and tyres (formula ford for example) and even then it is better to be on the front couple of rows.