What to do with out of date harness?

[Pure Fiater]

No more racing for me this year and my harness is out of date at the end
of 2011 what can be done with it. Recycle ? charities ?
Is this the first year they go out of date ? has anybody planned what to
do with them.
Mine still looks brand new.

[Code Red Man.]

E-Bay it for the trackday boys.

[graham bahr]

as above, i think you can still use them in speed events, banger and oval racers also still want then

[thebear]

If all else fails you could make it part of a towing strap for highway use or use it to lash the car in place in/on your trailer.

[Al Weyman]

Ridiculous waste of money and earths resources whoever thought this one up is a joke I have binned about three sets now. I will add, all in perfect clean and usable condition having been used about 30 times max yet my 1992 7 seater dayvan just sailed through its MoT with nearly 20 year old belts, the whole thing is a nonscense.

[Pure Fiater]

My grandson will look good and be safe in his pushchair.
When he's born that is.

[thebear]

Originally Posted by Al Weyman

Ridiculous waste of money and earths resources whoever thought this one up is a joke I have binned about three sets now. I will add, all in perfect clean and usable condition having been used about 30 times max yet my 1992 7 seater dayvan just sailed through its MoT with nearly 20 year old belts, the whole thing is a nonscense.

Perhaps but please realize that the UV content of sunlight can and will deteriorate the polymers used in the manufacture of the belts, thereby weakening them. In the UK sunlight may not be as prevalent as the rest of the world. Also, atmospheric Ozone and trace chemicals will also take a toll.

The only suitable strength test is a destructive one. Any stress will weaken them so it is a good idea to change them after a shunt.

Also the polymers vary with the date of manufacture and newer ones are usually improved in some ways.

Similarly, the Snell Foundation requires manufacturing dates on helmets.

I would find something secure to grab in case of a highway shunt in your dayvan. I don't think the MoT tested the belts for strength. At best they examined them for nicks, fraying and security of the mounting.

.

[andy97]

Race car belts are essentially the same as those found in aircraft. Those RN aircraft that I used to work on (a long time ago) had regular inspections (for poor stitching, contamination etc etc) & servicing and were then re-fitted to the aircraft. Some belts would have been many years old. Alternatively, a belt that had just had some OM15 or some other oil split on it might only be a few weeks old but would have been taken out of service. Seems an eminently sensible approach.

[midgetman]

See your point Bear, but like Al, between races mine's stored where the sun don't shine (my loft, that is!).

I was talking to a seat importer the other day, and it's all due to the manufacturers saying they can't get product liability insurance to cover them for seats older than 5 years. Well they would say that, wouldn't they?

[Al Weyman]

My cars are stored in a garage and the sun dont shine much in there! I still have the last ones I took out now 5 years old and they are perfect and also red the worst colour for fading but no signs of it.

[GORDON STREETER]

I think I only had one set of belts in my Hot Rod days, now they took a lot of grief and I can't remember anyone's breaking, even the banger boys !
OK the speeds may be different but mile for mile there are more incidents and crashes on the ovals.

[Paul D]

I agree - money for old rope (excuse the pun!).

Making the comparison to ordinary road car belts - I've been around cars and in the motor trade all my life, and I've never yet seen or heard of a seatbelt failing in a shunt, no matter how old the car! So Al, despite what Thebear says, I don't think I'd be too worried about those belts in your dayvan if I was you! My dayvan is a tad older, and I sure ain't worried!

I'd love to hear any evidence that seatbelts (assuming they're of good physical appearance) are significantly weakened by age alone, but I suspect we may have a bit of a wait before anyone presents any...

I also don't go for the "But when racing, you're travelling much faster and the chances of a shunt are much higher" argument either. That statement is undeniably true, but what is also true is that when racing, we're protected by a belt that uses at least four separate pieces of heavy duty webbing, so any impact load is spread across those four pieces of webbing. Compare that to a road car seatbelt which uses effectively one piece of much lighter duty webbing, and I think it's safe to say that the average race car harness is good for a lot more use than we currently get out of them.

FFS, my last harness that expires in a couple of months has done no more than a dozen races - can anyone really tell me with a straight face that it should be binned?

/Rant over.

[Peter Mallett]

Originally Posted by Code Red Man.

E-Bay it for the trackday boys.

Don't forget there is a liability if you sell a defective piece of safety gear and someone is injured. If you do sell it I suggest you get a written waiver from the purchaser.

Personally, I'd cut them up and take them to the tip.

Whether it's a ridiculous waste of money or not, them's the rules.

[GORDON STREETER]

What aught to happen is that we sign a waiver on signing on if we have out of date belts that are obviously still in good condition.
I bet the manufacturers would "magicly" squirm their way out of a claim if one did break !

[midgetman]

Peter, there's liability for Racewear Ltd selling a defective piece of safety equipment.

There is no liability for M Tyler, private individual, selling a piece of a safety equipment labelled "not suitable for use in MSA regulated motor sport, but you take your own chance as to whether it is safe for your purposes. I've warned you about this, it's your decision."

For this reason I don't normally sell second hand belt parts from the MGs we break, the distinction between me and my business is too blurred. I use them for lifting straps, towing eyes, loads of things.

Personally I wish all racing safety equipment was lifed

[Peter Mallett]

Originally Posted by midgetman

"not suitable for use in MSA regulated motor sport, but you take your own chance as to whether it is safe for your purposes. I've warned you about this, it's your decision."

Unfortunately the law of tort doesn't recognise idiocy. The words "not suitable" etc. are effectively a waiver, but they would have to be actually on the belts.

[Chris Y]

Originally Posted by Peter Mallett

Don't forget there is a liability if you sell a defective piece of safety gear and someone is injured.

If it's defective when sold, then sure.

But we're talking about what happens to a product 5 YEARS down the line.

Let's not muddle the issues

[stockhatcher]

I have to 'bin' my belts at the end of this year. 5 years old, probably have had around 50-60 hours use in that time. If you bought a TV and it broke after 50 hours use you'd want your money back.

The belt companies may not be able to get insurance on these products after 5 years, but I suspect they haven't tried to hard. However the MSA could take a more commercial view and allow out of date belts to be used so long as they are passed by the scrutineer based on certain parameters. You would of course have to have a disclaimer from the driver agreeing to the risk he is taking and the driver has no place to go if the scrut decides they are not race worthy.

If the scrutineer is not prepared to vouch for the safety then you have to wonder what scrutineering is for.

[Peter Mallett]

The point I'm making is that the defect is the "life" of the harness. Presumably when it was bought it was fine (and possibly will be after five years), but if you sell it on, because it has run out of "life" for its intended purpose, there could be an argument that it is not fit for use elsewhere. Ergo make sure you get a waiver from the buyer.

The waters are particularly muddy when it comes to safety gear.

[watty]

Originally Posted by stockhatcher

I have to 'bin' my belts at the end of this year. 5 years old, probably have had around 50-60 hours use in that time. If you bought a TV and it broke after 50 hours use you'd want your money back.

The belt companies may not be able to get insurance on these products after 5 years, but I suspect they haven't tried to hard. However the MSA could take a more commercial view and allow out of date belts to be used so long as they are passed by the scrutineer based on certain parameters. You would of course have to have a disclaimer from the driver agreeing to the risk he is taking and the driver has no place to go if the scrut decides they are not race worthy.

If the scrutineer is not prepared to vouch for the safety then you have to wonder what scrutineering is for.

You may be interested to know that Motorsport in both New Zealand and Australia now have a 5 year + 5 year expiry date on FIA belts (we also have SFI lever latch belts that are 2 year only) - the second five years follows the FIA date, and is subject to scrutineers close inspection for fraying / discoloration / oil staining etc.

As scrutineers, we don't vouch for the safety of a manufacturers product, they have well paid people to do that! We inspect to a set of rules to help ensure vehicles are up to said standard.
As a long time participant in many forms of our game, and the owner of a number of big shunts (my panel beater loves me!) to test my safety equipment , I am quite happy to replace my belts and helmet as required.

[skeee]

Originally Posted by andy97

a belt that had just had some OM15 or some other oil split on it might only be a few weeks old but would have been taken out of service. Seems an eminently sensible approach.

OM15 is pretty nasty stuff though. It corrodes rubber and fibres and skin!
(For those not familiar it's hydraulic oil, akin too brake fluid!)

Although you'd never like to "cut corners" with safety gear I do sometimes think we over-service a lot. Definitely did in the military. That's how we managed to always approve "Extensions" to a life of an item!

[JohnD]

Originally Posted by thebear

Perhaps but please realize that the UV content of sunlight can and will deteriorate the polymers used in the manufacture of the belts, thereby weakening them. In the UK sunlight may not be as prevalent as the rest of the world. Also, atmospheric Ozone and trace chemicals will also take a toll.

bear,
never wanting to take anyone's word, I did a little research. Seat belts and harness are made of polyester webbing.
See this webpage, ttp://www.vam.ac.uk/content/journals/conservation-journal/issue-44/how-fast-do-polyester-fabrics-age-in-the-museum-environment/
from which comes the following quotes,
"the tensile strength of polyester fabrics would not be affected after 80 years of illumination"
and
"after two months [at 80C] the tensile strength for both fabrics was unchanged. "

This was an experiment to find out if fabrics would detriorate when kept in museum, in display boxes under bright lighting and in a warm environment. 50lux,ten hours a day, which is the light intensity in a domestic room.
Full daylight (not direct sun) is about 10,000–25,000 lux )[2]
Direct sunlight 32,000–130,000 lux, so a lot less than leaving the belts out in the sun.

The paper conlcuded that "the polyester fabrics under investigation were very stable."

John

[thebear]

Originally Posted by JohnD

bear,
never wanting to take anyone's word, I did a little research. Seat belts and harness are made of polyester webbing.
See this webpage, ttp://www.vam.ac.uk/content/journals/conservation-journal/issue-44/how-fast-do-polyester-fabrics-age-in-the-museum-environment/
from which comes the following quotes,
"the tensile strength of polyester fabrics would not be affected after 80 years of illumination"
and
"after two months [at 80C] the tensile strength for both fabrics was unchanged. "

This was an experiment to find out if fabrics would detriorate when kept in museum, in display boxes under bright lighting and in a warm environment. 50lux,ten hours a day, which is the light intensity in a domestic room.
Full daylight (not direct sun) is about 10,000–25,000 lux )[2]
Direct sunlight 32,000–130,000 lux, so a lot less than leaving the belts out in the sun.

The paper conlcuded that "the polyester fabrics under investigation were very stable."

John

The website also states "The ultraviolet radiation was filtered and cooling was fan-assisted." If the UV was filtered (out?) it would not apply to the current topic.

However this Google search confirms your posit..

Should you be inclined to `do it yourself' search HERE.

My original supposition was from `before the dawn of recorded time' (1962-1966, when I was racing. See avatar).

[JohnD]

Gosh, bear, you sound quite offended.
My post wasn't intended to contradict you but to add to the discussion, and I take your point about the UV.

Both your links go to Google searches for a seat belt material - did you find somewhere that did better experiments on webbing than the museum?

John

[thebear]

Originally Posted by JohnD

Gosh, bear, you sound quite offended.
My post wasn't intended to contradict you but to add to the discussion, and I take your point about the UV.

Both your links go to Google searches for a seat belt material - did you find somewhere that did better experiments on webbing than the museum?

John

No offense implied or taken. I was checking your source as you did mine.

Nothing on the actual testing of competition belts. Try this LINK which confirms the need to replace periodically.

As an aside I found this LINK which may be of use to those in the UK.