[WEC] LMP Future Regulations (was Le Mans EVO rules - now hypercar rules)

[Adam43]

I don’t think the length of the car gives you a longer diffuser in F1. I think that is closely regulated and the dimensions are set and defined and related to the rear axle position.

But the length is because of aero. A longer car allows you to do more with the air between front and rear. If nothing else you get a better flow at the rear if the car is longer. Also it means you can move the air without needing sharp turns that might cause stalling.

Whatever, it is aero.

I suppose both do it for efficiency, but for F1 you chose to turn those benefits into downforce, but for sportscar you are more likely to chose to trim it out. Either way you gain what you need more efficiently; more downforce for same drag, or same downforce for less drag.

[Pandamasque]

There's one big difference though. In LMH aero efficiency is capped by the rules. So why make a car that doesn't like sharp corners or overtaking or traffic.. and looks like a grand piano while at it? It's not like someone's about to turn up with a straight-8 or V16 engine.

[Adam43]

Good point about the new regs. Be interesting how that plays out. Still going to be good to have a relatively good base, but no need to go to extremes?

[deggis]

The final 2021 technical and sporting regulations sent for WMSC rubber-stamping have been published very recently.

https://www.fia.com/regulation/category/118

The first interesting new thing I noticed... testing is unlimited? I presume will be only the case for 2021 and then only for new entrants.

[chernaudi]

I do wonder if the LMP1 Hypercars will get anywhere near the 5000mm max length, even with the longer front and rear overhangs. I guess we'll see next month when Toyota launch their new car.


Also, will LMDH/DPI gen 2 go along with the changes in tech rules for LMH as far as aero?

[carbsmith]

Full time LMDh in WEC in 2022 might still be a stretch, but there's a big difference between needing a reasonable field of them ready for Daytona so that it makes sense to replace DPi and change LMP2, and maybe a couple cars showing up for Le Mans to race in a class that already exists.

We have most of the dimensions for everything but next gen LMP2 already
LMP1-H - 4650mm x 1900mm x 1050mm, effective 2900mm wheelbase, 875kg
LMP2 - 4750mm x 1900mm x 1050mm, effective 3000mm wheelbase, 930kg
LMH - 5000mm x 2000mm, 1.6m^2 frontal area, 3150mm max wheelbase, 1030kg
LMDh - 5100mm x 2000mm, 3150mm wheelbase, 1030kg

LMH is allowed an extra 100mm front overhang and 250mm rear overhang over LMP1 and LMP2.

The biggest functional difference between the two rulesets besides the option to run less or more hybrid boost is that LMH is a front wheel drive hybrid system and LMDh's is between the crank and the gearbox at the back. We had much bigger variations within LMP1 until the last couple years when they settled on front drive 8 MJ. Does say, a 200kW hybrid LMH have an advantage in the rain? Probably. But I don't think it will be worse than when Porsche was running a last gen GTE car and had a combination of BoP and car configuration that made it seconds a lap faster than anything else in the wet. If you have a lot of hybrid boost you can spurt by people but it also means you're going to have less top end like the Toyotas complaining about getting repassed by LMP2s when they were BoP'd down to non-hybrid performance.

Oh yeah, but LMH also has minimum speed restrictions for 4WD engagement again, so the traction advantage won't even be that big.

[helgi]

Looks like realists are not welcomed here. There's even a special thread for those who think positively for that LMDh spec cup. Well. Market on the march. An old V8 from Cayenne to propel Porsche into bright future. Would never imagine that Grand Am was going to be that long lasting.

[CTD]

Originally Posted by helgi

Looks like realists are not welcomed here. There's even a special thread for those who think positively for that LMDh spec cup. Well. Market on the march. An old V8 from Cayenne to propel Porsche into bright future. Would never imagine that Grand Am was going to be that long lasting.

I guess you see what you want to see .

The thread that you mention is just to share positive news - something I believe everyone welcomes in these COVID-19 days. Besides, Spec chassis and suspecision has never been a spec cup and not wanting to start a new F1 discussion, you could argue that F1 is even more "spec" that LMDh with only 4 engines, spec ECU and shared suspension components between plenty of teams (Haas being the most extreme example).

Besides, I will always welcome manufactures in a "spec" class to race next to LMH, rather than not having them at all.

[helgi]

Originally Posted by CTD

Besides, I will always welcome manufactures in a "spec" class to race next to LMH, rather than not having them at all.

Would be better to close WEC at all to bring more attention to small team garagists. If history does not teach a lesson, it's a very alarming signal.

[Aysedasi]

Originally Posted by helgi

Would be better to close WEC at all to bring more attention to small team garagists. If history does not teach a lesson, it's a very alarming signal.

If we had a large queue of garagists waiting in the wings, yes maybe.... We need manufacturers and privateers. Alarmed? No, I'm not alarmed at the prospect of a number of manufacturers coming into (back to) the sportscar racing fold. Glass very much more than half full here (and I say that as a big supporter of the Glickenhaus project).

[CTD]

Originally Posted by helgi

Would be better to close WEC at all to bring more attention to small team garagists. If history does not teach a lesson, it's a very alarming signal.

They have never had better opportunity with them now being able to purchase manufacture cars from all bar Toyota and Peugeot. Others has stated that they are for sale (Glickenhaus) or is open for it (Audi and Porsche)

[helgi]

Originally Posted by Aysedasi

If we had a large queue of garagists waiting in the wings, yes maybe....

Lola (RIP), Wolf, BR - who else? They could be somewhere here if there had been no forced amount of "manufacturers" in LMP2.

[Pandamasque]

Originally Posted by Aysedasi

If we had a large queue of garagists waiting in the wings, yes maybe.... We need manufacturers and privateers. Alarmed? No, I'm not alarmed at the prospect of a number of manufacturers coming into (back to) the sportscar racing fold. Glass very much more than half full here (and I say that as a big supporter of the Glickenhaus project).

I get your point, but you can't have garagists when they're basically outlawed in any kind of professional circuit racing on every level. In ACO-rules racing no amount of money will let a racing team-constructor compete anywhere but LMH, which is a leap of faith that only the likes of Panoz or Glickenhaus dare to take. Below that everything else is a turn-key formula.
You can't engineer a GT car without an OEM's blessing and without producing silly numbers of race cars to get the homologation stamped. And even then you're up against a dozen manufacturers who use political power and basically cubic dollars wrestling for favourable BoP anyway.
And LMP3 and LMP2 prototypes aren't really prototypes. It got to the point where the sanctioning body broke its own rules to let a closed cartel of 4 constructors indefinitely maintain a stranglehold over the P2 market.
It's a similar problem that the open-wheel ladder has. Junior formulae no longer require the engineering skill set that is still required in F1. It's all moving towards arrive-and-drive business model, while all the garagists are doing things like hillclimb.

I'm not sure where things went wrong, but basically sanctioning bodies became totally dependant on car manufacturer "activation" money.

PS: and yes, a Porsche and Audi being the same exact car differentiated by the "epic" battle between an SUV turbo V8 and a generic Audi-badged DTM turbo 4-banger has to be least evocative solution I can possibly imagine. It's gonna be Dyson vs. Karcher. Reading about it on Racer made me die inside.

[chernaudi]

I wish that LMDH was open to teams building their own cars, but that ship sailed a long time ago. Unless you want to go the BOP route, you have what happened with Group C, IMSA GTP and last generation LMP1. Costs soar, no one wants to play anymore if you're a big OEM, and they either drop it or find some convenient excuse to drop it that sounds good publicly but masks the fact that they just lost interest in spending lots of money on something that they see as a losing proposition.

Also, I can see Audi and Porsche making the Multimatic chassis a "VAG" chassis, much like I suspect Cadillac did with the Dallara (and probably part of why it did well as the Cadillac DPI and struggled as a LMP2). At least Multimatic won't have to struggle with Riley's input, given that company hasn't designed a competitive carbon tubbed car since they designed the Intrepid GTP for Pratt & Miller in the early 1990s. In some ways, the Ford GT (which Multimatic helped Ford design and produce) was more advanced than the chassis and suspension used on the Riley Mk30/Mazda DPI (which initially didn't even use Multimatic shocks).

[Spyderman]

Originally Posted by helgi

Looks like realists are not welcomed here. There's even a special thread for those who think positively for that LMDh spec cup. Well. Market on the march. An old V8 from Cayenne to propel Porsche into bright future. Would never imagine that Grand Am was going to be that long lasting.

I suspect the engine is more likely to come from the 918 than the Cayenne and only if they decide to go the road car route.
Apparently the decision has not yet been made.

[Coach Ep]

I find it interesting to see the similarities (and differences) between the new LMDh cars (plus current DPis to a certain extend as well) vs. the Aston Martin DBR1-2/Lola-Aston Martin B09/60 and Lola B08/60 (with AM engine) as raced in the late 2000s which, you could argue, were essentially more branding exercises than stand alone designs as well.

[chernaudi]

First spy pics of the Toyota LMH. Looks very LMP1-evo-ish to me.

http://www.dailysportscar.com/2020/1...829ng92TgN9iys

[Pandamasque]

Wow, that's even lazier than I expected. Except it seems to look longer now, so even less like a sports car than a TS050.

I didn't have much hope after the camo photos, and I'm still disappointed. They could at least do away with that Oreca-tumor in front of the rear wheel arch which bulges in a totally wrong place and slopes towards the wheel, as opposed to after it.

EDIT: I know how to make that wheel arch look purposeful absolutely without changing its aerodynamic shape!
Boom!

Originally Posted by WyldStallion

My interest in the WEC and LMH going forward starting in 2021 is 100% dependent on will be how the Toyota LMH car looks. If it looks like an LMP1 car I will be disappointed and will tune out. I do like the images of the GR Super Sport online. If we get that with a prototype rear wing then that is fine.

Please Toyota don't screw this up.

Sorry, mate.

[deggis]

First one group will be disappointed that the cars will not look like road-going hypercars and then later next year another group will be disappointed when it becomes obvious that despite the looks the cars are not really like previous LMP1-Hs because of the much more restrictive rules?

[Bentley03]

Originally Posted by deggis

First one group will be disappointed that the cars will not look like road-going hypercars and then later next year another group will be disappointed when it becomes obvious that despite the looks the cars are not really like previous LMP1-Hs because of the much more restrictive rules?

That's true, but you know what, with several manufacturers involved in the top category again, it will feel like it actually matters, which it definitely hasn't since Porsche withdrew. Let's celebrate some genuine (even if it's BoP'd) competition for overall race wins again!

[Pandamasque]

I hope I don't lose interest like I did with SRO racing, despite the close competition. Baby out with the bathwater kinda feeling.

Originally Posted by deggis

First one group will be disappointed that the cars will not look like road-going hypercars and then later next year another group will be disappointed when it becomes obvious that despite the looks the cars are not really like previous LMP1-Hs because of the much more restrictive rules?

Well, at least everyone's unhappy in the end. That was the goal, wasn't it?

[GT6]

Agreed there James, we are finally getting some good news and in todays environment we should all be jumping for joy not picking holes in things.

[Aysedasi]

Originally Posted by Bentley03

That's true, but you know what, with several manufacturers involved in the top category again, it will feel like it actually matters, which it definitely hasn't since Porsche withdrew. Let's celebrate some genuine (even if it's BoP'd) competition for overall race wins again!

Here, here, top those half empty glasses up will you folks!

Originally Posted by Pandamasque

Well, at least everyone's unhappy in the end. That was the goal, wasn't it?

Right now, personally, far from it.

[Pandamasque]

I'm just gutted that ACO/IMSA went for something I was hoping for for like 15 years and blew it big time. And these ugly things, which are restricted in performance specifically so they don't have to be ugly, will be the swan song of combustion engine sports car racing.

[carbsmith]

Originally Posted by deggis

First one group will be disappointed that the cars will not look like road-going hypercars and then later next year another group will be disappointed when it becomes obvious that despite the looks the cars are not really like previous LMP1-Hs because of the much more restrictive rules?

Don't worry, my disappointment has been immeasurable for about two years already.