Sir Lewis Hamilton is the GOAT

[Adam43]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

Why have the 2 best drivers when you already have 1? Even more points? Even more domination? Even more 1-2s? An absolutely guaranteed 1-2 in the championship? Having a real backup driver who'll win the race when your main one won't? Hard to say Bottas ticks these boxes.

The reason they don't want two top talents is the Lewis Rosberg situation. Simply, it's harder to manage. The pure results were absolutely better than the Lewis Bottas pairing. But my god it was a lot of stress and drama for Mercedes.

Same with things like Senna and Prost. The actual results McLaren got when they were team mates were amazing, and much better than after Prost left. But the reality was it was an impossibly hard situation to manage.

Why is Bottas in that seat? Because he won't beat Lewis. Why is Bottas getting 1 year contract extensions? Because when he doesn't finish second in the championship, it's easier to drop him for a number 2.

Note: None of this is a criticism of Lewis.

I get the easier to manage. Obviously.

I just think it works the other way round in most cases.

It’s less “We don’t want the top two drivers because of the aggro” and more “it’s hard and expensive to get the top two drivers and it’s not worth the extra aggro”

The worth of the second of the top two drivers is less to you than it is to another team that doesn’t have either!

Mercedes didn’t shy away from having a Rosberg who could challenge and 1/3 seasons beat Hamilton. But they didn’t go out for that either when they were in a dominant position. It certainly wasn’t top draw money to achieve. They didn’t again. They aren’t prepared, because it’s not worth the cost, to chase a Verstappen contract.

McLaren in the 1980s? Well a different more naive era perhaps. And one, because there were perceived to be more top level drivers (Senna, Prost, Piquet and Mansell) where the situation was more likely to find a couple of top draw drivers in one team - supply and demand!

[wnut]

The real point being that Mercedes have enjoyed such a car advantage since 2014 that they don't need any of the strategy advantages offered by two top line drivers to win races and championships.

So you are dead right why bother chasing another top line driver to fill the second seat and bring all the drama of having someone compete with Lewis.

Mercedes have also built a dynasty around Lewis and his name in the record books forever associated with Mercedes is marketing gold, and all a competitive driver would do is devalue this.

[Casper]

Originally Posted by chillibowl

it would have been really helpful to this debate if Rosberg didnt retire.

But if Nico stayed after winning, im not entirely sure Merc would have favoured LH outright in 2017. They would have probably been destroyed by the press and fan base had they done so.

Would it be fair to say LH caught a massive break with Nico's retirement?

*Should have put that in the goat thread.

I recall the year prior to Rosberg winning he was interviewed and saying that he knew how to beat Hamilton. I assume after he had done it he was under no illusion that to do it again was going to be next to impossible and the effort he had to put in was unrepeatable. I am not getting into the who was the best driver and who got screwed by circumstance that is just the way it all came across. Rosberg simply saw Hamilton as such a formidable competitor he was not prepared to try it again.

[Adam43]

I would have a similar, but slightly different slant on that.

Rosberg put everything he had into winning that. And he did it. Previous years he had his moments, more poles, batches of races where he was stronger, but that year it took everything. Man he was knackered. He’d done it. He knew where he was, his achievement and what else’s was happening in his life. He knew he wasn’t prepared to do it again.

A super quick guy and knows where he’s at. Top man.

[S griffin]

Indeed. He knew that he couldn't beat Lewis on speed, so had to make the most of every opportunity he was given. He did just that, but as you say, it took that bit extra to make it happen and wasn't prepared to do it again

[Biscuits In A Red Bull]

Rosberg had Lewis focusing inwards and could really rattle him in a way that Bottas can't keep up across multiple weekends nor seems to want to (presumably as he is content sitting behind Lewis in such a mighty car). Since Rosberg has retired, Hamilton has reached a level in his driving that even Sebastian Vettel in a generally superior car could not overcome him in 2018. As chillibowl mentioned elsewhere, Rosberg's retirement was a blessing to Hamilton. But the methods Rosberg used to outdo Hamilton as a teammate were very different to Button, who always looked to be Hamilton's equal in status and more often than not in ability too.

[Adam43]

Rosberg’s tricks? He number one trick was that he could be faster! He needed to be 100% on his game, but a lot of those poles and wins demonstrated that.

[ascarracinguk]

I think as ever it was a mix of things. Both these things are true

1) Rosberg had everything going his way in 2016, it was the perfect storm
2) Rosberg absolutely deserved his championship

If you look back to 2016 Hamilton was destabilised by losing his engineers and mechanics to Rosberg giving him a slow start, he had a couple of retirements at critical points, most notably Sepang having clawed his way back into the championship fight at least twice having had bad reliability, Rosberg was just flat out quicker on the Saturday giving him an advantage going into a Sunday.

Rosberg has openly said several times that he had to put his entire life on hold to beat Hamilton that year and he couldn’t do it again, there are some very candid and enlightening interviews on YouTube.

[S griffin]

Rosberg really made the most of his opportunity, taking advantage of every little slip Hamilton, even if he did make those silly moves in Austria and Germany on Lewis and Max respectively.

Also to add Lewis’ woes above, he also fluffed quite a few of his starts that season

[2 litre Touring Car Star]

I don't understand some of the opinions on here.

What advantage did Ferrari have in 2018?

ascarracinguk and I have already had exchanges over Rosberg, and has passed. The problem is while his posts acknowledge Rosberg as a deserved title winner, often the rest of the post comes across to me as though underneath he wants to let rip and diminish his title. But that could be how it comes across to me.

Rosberg improved from 2015 and was legit the best MB in 16. If you marry up his actions and what's occurred, he just doesn't have the desire to win multiple titles or become a deified figure. He wanted to win a championship and that's it.

He signed a two year deal prior to winning the championship. Had he missed out on 16, he'd have carried on to try and win 17. So whether anyone likes it or not, he was eventually going to win the cship. Him retiring straight after winning is no different to other champions who've lost steam after being satisfied and having different interests.

I agree with wnut's opinion of MB alignment with Hamilton's career and legacy.

[Aysedasi]

Originally Posted by 2 litre Touring Car Star

Rosberg improved from 2015 and was legit the best MB in 16. If you marry up his actions and what's occurred, he just doesn't have the desire to win multiple titles or become a deified figure. He wanted to win a championship and that's it.

Do you think he would have quit if Hamilton had not been in the same team? Not seeking at all to deride Rosberg's WDC, just wondering.....?

[2 litre Touring Car Star]

Originally Posted by Aysedasi

Do you think he would have quit if Hamilton had not been in the same team? Not seeking at all to deride Rosberg's WDC, just wondering.....?

I don't know. But is interesting to speculate now you've brought it up.

I suppose off the top of my head, he might've carried on and stopped as soon as he didn't continue to win the championship?

Even though it's not the same, I find similarities with how Scheckter and Jones finished their careers (First time in Jones' case). Both stopped the year after winning the cship more interested in other things. Both of those guys probably wouldn't have stopped had they not already won?

The question about Rosberg for me would be would he have stopped and he pinched the cship in 14?

[S griffin]

We can't go on what ifs all the time. Rosberg has his time and is enjoying his life now. He got the title in a very tough season that could have gone either way, he got what he could out of the sport and more than most.

I wouldn't rate Rosberg with the all time greats, very good driver, but not a great. And Scheckter and Jones too took their chances when they could and they were probably not quite as great as others, just hard workers who made the most of what they got. It's probably why they don't get mentioned when it comes to all time greats of the sport. And they won the title too by getting the right car at the right time and fair play to them, they did it the right way too

For me Rosberg did well in 2014, but it was the first time he was in a title fight and despite a few slip ups, did a brilliant job. I think though against someone like Vettel in the same team that season would have been no different. Would have been as close as it was with Hamilton though, even if Rosberg sometimes kept a cooler head than Hamilton. The fact that he didn't win the championship makes it irrelevant whether he would have stopped after 2014, but it was a very tough season and he came close, but either way he was still hungry for more success after that, so it probably made him stronger. I don't think retirement was even in his mind then, he was racing to keep at the top, title or not

[Aysedasi]

Originally Posted by S griffin

We can't go on what ifs all the time.

What?

Of course we can. This is a discussion forum!

If we didn't pursue 'what ifs' there would be very little to discuss!

[GT6]

Must admit this particular discussion is pointless, there are people on here that think Hamilton is a "Goat" and people on here that think he is the Goat. Nothing will change people's opinion of him. IMHO he is a good driver but he is not the Goat. Once he is put out to pasture and time has past, then these discussions will be appropriate, but not really while he is driving, he has time to make more of an impact or fade into history.

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by Aysedasi

What?

Of course we can. This is a discussion forum!

If we didn't pursue 'what ifs' there would be very little to discuss!

It's not like some people have ever posted in a whole thread based on 'what ifs'!!

[Aysedasi]

Originally Posted by GT6

Must admit this particular discussion is pointless, there are people on here that think Hamilton is a "Goat" and people on here that think he is the Goat. Nothing will change people's opinion of him. IMHO he is a good driver but he is not the Goat. Once he is put out to pasture and time has past, then these discussions will be appropriate, but not really while he is driving, he has time to make more of an impact or fade into history.

No more pointless than every other 'GOAT' thread there has been (or could have been) or ever will be.....

We do at least have a trophy available.....

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Goat-Award-.../dp/B079SMQN8Y

(or actually not, as it happens!)

[2 litre Touring Car Star]

I'll ask all the members from the England. Is Hamilton England's best ever racing driver?

[Greem]

Originally Posted by 2 litre Touring Car Star

I'll ask all the members from the England. Is Hamilton England's best ever racing driver?

No. The best ever racing driver in England is currently a taxi driver in Leeds.

(Or Birmingham, or Newcastle... You get the idea)

More seriously though: he's currently head and shoulders the best F1 driver from Stevenage, of that there is no doubt at all. Watching him and the team in sync is something very special and something we'll look back on in 25 years or more in the same way we do with others.

But we've been here before: Button & Brawn, Mansell & Williams, Clark & Lotus, etc etc. Best cars, best driver at the time.

It'll happen again and there will be another group of people arguing that Driver X is the GOAT!

[Peter Mallett]

Originally Posted by 2 litre Touring Car Star

I'll ask all the members from the England. Is Hamilton England's best ever racing driver?

Why are you asking this question? And for clarity he races under a United Kingdom licence not England. Hence the Union flag.

[S griffin]

At least asking if he's England's best F1 driver means we don't have to debate if he was better than Clark or Stewart

[GT6]

May be we should just refer to him as Billy and leave it as that, i am sure he will see it as a compliment while others will just smile.

[AnnoyedMoose]

I really don't get this constant need to rank and compare. It's demeaning to everyone ultimately. If motorsport was based totally on merit and nothing else plus there were enough seats in the same series with the same cars for the hundreds (or possibly thousands) of drivers on similar levels then there might be some point but that isn't going to happen.

Let's just appreciate what all the drivers at the top of their series throughout the world have achieved.

[2 litre Touring Car Star]

Originally Posted by Peter Mallett

Why are you asking this question? .

I was making the distinction between England and Scotland.

[Peter Mallett]

Why? He races under a UK licence, hence as far as the Championship is concerned he is British as were Clark, Stewart, Hill x2, Hunt, Mansell.