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Old 20 Aug 2020, 18:03 (Ref:3996725)   #16
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to each their own of course, but i liked refueling. maybe more the notion of short stints on low fuel and fresh rubber. i find an unnecessary disconnect between Q2 quali times and fastest laps of a race and i also like the strategy implications of long vs shorts runs and think it would be even more interesting given the various tire compounds now also in play.

of course there were safety and cost concerns regarding the refueling rigs, but i feel that less esoteric fuels and less bespoke equipment could perhaps bring the safety towards an acceptable level.

but teams often messed up their refueling, either took too long or just got the real time strategy choices wrong, and this affected races in unpredictable ways. no doubt the teams dont like anything that increases the potential for mistakes though.

of course it didnt happen every race but on occasion we were treated to a special combination of race strategy and driver skill...Schumi in 2004 at France being the classic example of this.

https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/a...EyBC401ET.html
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Old 22 Aug 2020, 10:23 (Ref:3997020)   #17
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At least with refueling we saw proper high speed racing laps, and not just touring around saving the tyres.
Now all we have is tyre conservation with the occasional DRS driveby.

Certainly refueling really opens up the strategy options.
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Old 22 Aug 2020, 11:26 (Ref:3997028)   #18
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Is the aim of rules tinkering to provide more drama in the races or to level the playing field to make it more competitive?

If it's the former then the same team(s) will win, it'll just feel more exciting. Maybe. I'm sceptical personally. Most of the rules now being complained about (like high degradation tires) were brought in precisely to spice things up.

If the aim is to make the racing more competitive then it's a hopeless task. The reason the races are a procession is not the rules, it's because Mercedes are simply better than everyone else at every single aspect of designing and racing an F1 car. There is absolutely nothing stopping Red Bull or Ferrari from designing a car as good as the Merc, nor anything stopping the other engine makers producing an engine as good. Merc are just better. They build a better engine and a better car and they are better at racing.

Personally I think that level of relentless brilliance is something to be admired and celebrated. To me it's about as dull as watching Usain Bolt win all the time - ie, not dull at all, but rather a privilege.

Such periods of dominance are entirely typical of F1 and entirely to be expected in a constructor championship. If we don't want this, the answer is spec parts and BOP. Either you accept artificial balancing or you accept that for every ruleset someone will simply build a better car.
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Old 22 Aug 2020, 11:29 (Ref:3997029)   #19
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There's quite an interesting article from BBC Sport on refueling.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/48971037
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Old 22 Aug 2020, 13:04 (Ref:3997036)   #20
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Horner's comments in that article are revealing. Refueling is one of several things suggested as a way to mix up strategies. But what happens is that everyone runs the alternatives through the simulator and one optimum strategy emerges.

Much like teams choosing to run slowly on high-degradation types because that's better than the multiple pit-stop strategies envisaged when the tires were introduced.
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Old 22 Aug 2020, 13:15 (Ref:3997037)   #21
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Horner's comments in that article are revealing. Refueling is one of several things suggested as a way to mix up strategies. But what happens is that everyone runs the alternatives through the simulator and one optimum strategy emerges.

Much like teams choosing to run slowly on high-degradation types because that's better than the multiple pit-stop strategies envisaged when the tires were introduced.
Watch an IndyCar race, which has both refueling and a mandatory tyre stop and you will see teams using different strategies.
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Old 22 Aug 2020, 16:32 (Ref:3997068)   #22
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Level of interest/boringness of past seasons

Indycar races though are more often than not influenced by FCY. So you are going to get varying strategies there. And at the same time it doesnít detract from the on track action. Indycar always provides close competitive racing compared to F1
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Old 22 Aug 2020, 16:58 (Ref:3997074)   #23
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Indycar races though are more often than not influenced by FCY. So you are going to get varying strategies there. And at the same time it doesnít detract from the on track action. Indycar always provides close competitive racing compared to F1
They can be influenced by FCYs but I wouldn't say more often than not. One would need some stats to back that up. It would be interesting to found out, so I've nominated you for that task.

I've seen many a race where teams have adopted different strategies, prior to the green flag.
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Old 22 Aug 2020, 17:01 (Ref:3997076)   #24
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Aha, I would need more time for that. Maybe I exaggerated a bit when I said more often than

Of course another main difference with F1 is Indycar uses ovals, so thereís another way in which pit strategies are going to be done differently
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Old 22 Aug 2020, 17:12 (Ref:3997078)   #25
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Aha, I would need more time for that. Maybe I exaggerated a bit when I said more often than

Of course another main difference with F1 is Indycar uses ovals, so thereís another way in which pit strategies are going to be done differently
I'm sure you have plenty of time, what with the coronavirus impinging on everyone's lives.

Race strategy is based on tyre choice/degradation and fuel consumption, irregardless of whether the race takes place on an oval, or a road/street course.
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Old 22 Aug 2020, 17:21 (Ref:3997085)   #26
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I've long felt that refuelling in races is a double-edged sword, and the edge that was exposed in the previous era was the one driven by the need for fraction-of-a-second differences. The rigs were complex, the hoses heavy, and the fill rate just silly - ISTR is was 12 litres/sec.

Make the fuel cell small enough that cars have to refuel, and pull the flow rate down to (say) 1 or 2 litres/sec. We'll then see cars running proper fuel saving strategies - slipstreaming for example - ready to turn up the wick at the end. The driver with the gentlest right foot will win.

Alternatively, make the fuel cell whatever size it has to be but only give each team a fixed fuel quantity at each event, calculated on a set number of high-speed laps in practice & qualifying (looking at previous years' data). Those who sacrifice setup time in practice keep fuel for the race but might not be as prepared; those who run long practice sessions then might only just have enough fuel for the race.
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Old 22 Aug 2020, 17:29 (Ref:3997088)   #27
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I've long felt that refuelling in races is a double-edged sword, and the edge that was exposed in the previous era was the one driven by the need for fraction-of-a-second differences. The rigs were complex, the hoses heavy, and the fill rate just silly - ISTR is was 12 litres/sec.

Make the fuel cell small enough that cars have to refuel, and pull the flow rate down to (say) 1 or 2 litres/sec. We'll then see cars running proper fuel saving strategies - slipstreaming for example - ready to turn up the wick at the end. The driver with the gentlest right foot will win.

Alternatively, make the fuel cell whatever size it has to be but only give each team a fixed fuel quantity at each event, calculated on a set number of high-speed laps in practice & qualifying (looking at previous years' data). Those who sacrifice setup time in practice keep fuel for the race but might not be as prepared; those who run long practice sessions then might only just have enough fuel for the race.
I may have this wrong but when F1 initially adopted refueling, wasn't there an issue was no standard sized fuel tank?

Last edited by bjohnsonsmith; 22 Aug 2020 at 17:37.
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Old 22 Aug 2020, 18:09 (Ref:3997096)   #28
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Make the fuel cell small enough that cars have to refuel, and pull the flow rate down to (say) 1 or 2 litres/sec. We'll then see cars running proper fuel saving strategies - slipstreaming for example - ready to turn up the wick at the end. The driver with the gentlest right foot will win.
So then we'd see drivers going as slowly as possible and preferring to stay behind rather than overtake. Doesn't sound like an improvement.
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Old 22 Aug 2020, 18:24 (Ref:3997104)   #29
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Iím with you Green, thatís the only way I can accept having refuelling back. Putting the refuelling flow rate up would not necessarily make it advantage to run lighter and it could be like when Brabham first introduced refuelling, nice tortoise and hare race.

Also if a driver is in danger of running out during the end he can have a splash and dash, instead of having to fuel save
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Old 22 Aug 2020, 18:31 (Ref:3997108)   #30
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