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2 Oct 2020, 11:11 (Ref:4007953) | #26 | |||
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I doubt VAG group has an engine ready or are willing to commit to making one for 2022. It has been rumoured a few times the last few years (once it was clled a Porsche, next time an Audi, they can also call it Lamborghini or Bentley or whatever if they want) but nothing came of it. I highly doubt they will be interested now. -- -- Renault must be laughing now. Either Red Bull and Torros Rosso find another manufacturer and Renault won't really care as they seem to want to concebtrate on their own team for now. Either Red Bull or Torro Rosso or both come(s) begging for an engine Both options are fine for Renault I think. |
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2 Oct 2020, 11:25 (Ref:4007957) | #27 | |
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With this announcement, does this therefore mean that Yuki Tsunoda isn't as certain to be in F1 for either 2021/22? If he can make the jump to AlphaTauri for 2021 I'd expect he would still do so, but from then on what of his Honda backing? This does have some implications for the Red Bull junior programme.
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2 Oct 2020, 11:38 (Ref:4007960) | #28 | ||
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I suppose i am a bit more worried about RB pulling out one or both teams.
With the Williams sale, the 200m entry for new teams, budget cap plus better access to prize money...maybe this is a time to sell out/buy an existing team? Not so much worried about lack of engines. In fairness, 4 not fully electric engines was already superfluous and antiquated. The FE path is an interesting one depending on how much it would cost to transfer over the rights. Provided they dont go backwards with technology imo, this may be a good thing for F1. This sport just keeps on giving. I love it! |
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2 Oct 2020, 11:39 (Ref:4007961) | #29 | |||
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He is both Red Bull and Honda junior, right? I guess Red Bull may still want thim if they think he is good enough for 1 of their teams. But probably the Honda money and support will be gone, so if Red Bull don't rate him higher than what they have now or what they have down the pipe line they nmay decide to skip him And wait for Vips or the next one in line? |
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2 Oct 2020, 12:14 (Ref:4007970) | #30 | |
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Red Bull always seemed to be strangely scathingly critical of Renault. Did they warrant such public criticism?
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2 Oct 2020, 12:16 (Ref:4007971) | #31 | |
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Red Bull and Alpha Tauri have said they will continue after 2021. We’ll take their word for it, but it will be tough finding a new engine supplier.
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2 Oct 2020, 12:40 (Ref:4007976) | #32 | ||
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Id guess that Honda had already explained their plans to RB well before the announcement today. Maybe they've already got a plan in place, which could be one of 3 options: They've managed to persuade one of the remaining manufacturers to supply them (both teams). That they've been courting a new manufacturer (VAG?) who will take over after the Honda pull-out. Or that Honda will give them the rights to the engine and they'll either setup an operation to build/rebuild them themselves or they'll pay someone (like Mugen?) to do it for them.
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2 Oct 2020, 12:51 (Ref:4007977) | #33 | |||
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I cant see Mercedes pairing up with Red Bull, but maybe Renault? The Mugen Honda / own branding option seems possible. |
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2 Oct 2020, 13:01 (Ref:4007980) | #34 | ||
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2 Oct 2020, 13:03 (Ref:4007983) | #35 | |
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As the engine regs are stable for the coming years - would make sense for Red Bull to buy the engine project from Honda - bring in a Cosworth or Illen to develop and run it. Would give them control, would enable them to try and get on par/or an advantage over their rivals.
What is an F1 engine project, it is about money - if you have the fundng you can recruit the best people, develop the best product. Red Bull has plenty of money, it would safeguard it's F1 future. |
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2 Oct 2020, 13:07 (Ref:4007986) | #36 | |||
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2 Oct 2020, 13:08 (Ref:4007987) | #37 | |
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The VAG idea died when F1 switched from the proposed 4 cylinder world engines.
F1 needs to ditch all the restrictions on the recovery/deployment of the electric side of the engine or ditch that part of the PU entirely and go all in on ICE allowing for fully camless engines etc. This halfway house of not having the best of either technology just seems really counter productive to me. |
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2 Oct 2020, 13:10 (Ref:4007989) | #38 | ||
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No doubt they have had time and maybe already have something lined up...but it wont be a defacto bespoke solution. Not under the current formula at least.
I suppose there might be hope if Merc sell, but the chances of winning with a customer Merc or Ferrari engine supply, from a historical perspective at least, is slim to none. |
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2 Oct 2020, 13:13 (Ref:4007990) | #39 | |||
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2 Oct 2020, 13:14 (Ref:4007991) | #40 | ||
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[QUOTE=Moneyseeker;4007932]This is why TOCA have done such a good job with the BTCC, it still has the 'glamour' of some 'works' entries, but they are not allowed to dominate a well built, run and driven TOCA engined car car win races or as may be the case this year, the championship. Yes, we know that performance balancing and other elements help this. Now there will be a TOCA Hybrid power unit to keep the BTCC topical.
Not so much this year. How many TOCA motors have failed trying to keep up? |
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2 Oct 2020, 13:17 (Ref:4007993) | #41 | |||
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I think that if RB were aware of Honda pulling out well in advance, they will already be well down the road of sorting the solution. Likeliest is a a deal having been done with Honda to take over the project, have an existing engine prep firm (Mugen, Illien or An Other) to build/develop them with RB's and another sponsors money. I cannot see Renault or Merc being possible, and Ferrari only slightly more so. EDIT as I see chillibowl has just said! |
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2 Oct 2020, 13:36 (Ref:4008003) | #42 | ||
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No one can tell me that RB along with other interested parties was not aware of Honda's exit plans months ago. As for a spec motor Ferrari will go nuts if it is even suggested and the proposal will disappear never to see the light again even if it does have merit. At the end of the day the same number of teams are on the grid that were there when Honda arrived and they are still there with the same number of PU suppliers so things will be made to work. |
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2 Oct 2020, 13:42 (Ref:4008006) | #43 | ||
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Remember BE's words when talking about manufacturers - he always said you were only ever a board meeting away from them making the decison to pull out, regardless of what bits of paper are signed. I give you exhibit A - Toyota in that regard... |
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2 Oct 2020, 13:46 (Ref:4008008) | #44 | ||
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VW are rumoured to be planning the sale of Lamborghini, Bugatti & Ducatti and are also rumoured along with every other manufacturer to be bleeding cash due to the need to develop electric cars which they have just begun to bring to market and yet to see any ROI on so any suggestion they might get involved seems unlikely. F1 has driven itself up a cul de sac because they allowed the PU suppliers to dictate what they wanted and funnily enough the chief dictator was Renault closely followed by Ferrari. |
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2 Oct 2020, 14:13 (Ref:4008015) | #45 | |
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I thought Renault was aligned with VAG in wanting the 4 cylinder world engine and it was Ferrari and Mercedes who pushed for the V6 with all the bells and whistles? In fact I'm sure I remember Renault was totally opposed to the engines we have now and only agreed in the interest of the sport.
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2 Oct 2020, 14:37 (Ref:4008016) | #46 | |||
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2 Oct 2020, 14:39 (Ref:4008017) | #47 | ||
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What are their options? Ferrari - already commited to 3 teams and the engine is now poor Mercedes - will they supply Red Bull and already commited to customers Renault - lot of crawling and back sliding required by CH to be a customer again - but they have the capacity and clearly want engine partners. Honda- buy the project and recruit the right people to manage it - Honda has already done the hardest and most expensive part surely? I completely agree F1 has backed itself into a corner on an over complicated PU, that only attracted one new manufacturer who is now leaving. Probably the actual answer for the long terms is to tear up the regs and make the PU simpler |
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2 Oct 2020, 14:45 (Ref:4008019) | #48 | ||
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i agree that with money, one could hire those now left out of a job or those who dont want to be reallocated within Honda or those simply wishing to continue on with the work they have been doing for these past years. perhaps even Honda would consider loaning out that staff for the short term to keep the project going but as a subsidized cost and a little more outside of media attention.
we might even see some of that staff naturally migrate over to other F1 engine makers. Illien or Cosworth or whomever taking over would not preclude people moving between jobs/companies. so that part i agree with. i dont agree with f1 having backed itself into a corner. they still have 3 major manu backed engine manus left which still makes this one of the most stable engine periods in F1 history no? |
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2 Oct 2020, 14:47 (Ref:4008020) | #49 | |
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https://the-race.com/formula-1/honda...ck-to-renault/
Good piece above and reminds us that the FIA could 'make' Renault supply RBR under the regs that mean no team can be left without an engine supply... Perhaps the ideal solution is for Renault to supply Nissan branded engines to RBR, which keeps the toxic RBR-Renault past out of the limelight and opens up Nissan marketing opportunities with Red Bull and Verstappen? |
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2 Oct 2020, 14:56 (Ref:4008022) | #50 | |||
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and no doubt Renault would love to badge every brand they own in F1 all at the same time...no one will ever know just how poor of a job Cyril is doing then! |
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