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Old 2 Oct 2020, 12:16 (Ref:4007971)   #31
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Red Bull and Alpha Tauri have said they will continue after 2021. We’ll take their word for it, but it will be tough finding a new engine supplier.
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Old 2 Oct 2020, 12:40 (Ref:4007976)   #32
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Red Bull and Alpha Tauri have said they will continue after 2021. We’ll take their word for it, but it will be tough finding a new engine supplier.
Id guess that Honda had already explained their plans to RB well before the announcement today. Maybe they've already got a plan in place, which could be one of 3 options: They've managed to persuade one of the remaining manufacturers to supply them (both teams). That they've been courting a new manufacturer (VAG?) who will take over after the Honda pull-out. Or that Honda will give them the rights to the engine and they'll either setup an operation to build/rebuild them themselves or they'll pay someone (like Mugen?) to do it for them.
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Old 2 Oct 2020, 12:51 (Ref:4007977)   #33
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Originally Posted by VIVA GT View Post
Id guess that Honda had already explained their plans to RB well before the announcement today. Maybe they've already got a plan in place, which could be one of 3 options: They've managed to persuade one of the remaining manufacturers to supply them (both teams). That they've been courting a new manufacturer (VAG?) who will take over after the Honda pull-out. Or that Honda will give them the rights to the engine and they'll either setup an operation to build/rebuild them themselves or they'll pay someone (like Mugen?) to do it for them.
The VAG rumour I think ought to be discounted for various reasons - including the fact that this idea keeps cropping up for 20 years or more, but has never been a serious possibility.

I cant see Mercedes pairing up with Red Bull, but maybe Renault?

The Mugen Honda / own branding option seems possible.
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Old 2 Oct 2020, 13:01 (Ref:4007980)   #34
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Id guess that Honda had already explained their plans to RB well before the announcement today. Maybe they've already got a plan in place, which could be one of 3 options: They've managed to persuade one of the remaining manufacturers to supply them (both teams). That they've been courting a new manufacturer (VAG?) who will take over after the Honda pull-out. Or that Honda will give them the rights to the engine and they'll either setup an operation to build/rebuild them themselves or they'll pay someone (like Mugen?) to do it for them.
Red Bull will definitely have something lined up. The Honda announcement, though something of a surprise to see this morning as a headline, had really been on the cards for a while as it was suspected they wouldn't carry on beyond 2021 even last year. It isn't like the global conditions got any better since then.
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Old 2 Oct 2020, 13:03 (Ref:4007983)   #35
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As the engine regs are stable for the coming years - would make sense for Red Bull to buy the engine project from Honda - bring in a Cosworth or Illen to develop and run it. Would give them control, would enable them to try and get on par/or an advantage over their rivals.

What is an F1 engine project, it is about money - if you have the fundng you can recruit the best people, develop the best product. Red Bull has plenty of money, it would safeguard it's F1 future.
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Old 2 Oct 2020, 13:07 (Ref:4007986)   #36
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Its going to be interesting to see what engines the Red Bull teams end up with.


It will have to be one of the existing maufacturers as there is not time for a new one to come in and develop a new power unit.



I suspect we might see RB with one and Alpha Tauri wiyh another.

Mercedes will be supplying power units to 4 teams next season so they are unlikely to have the capacity to supply 2 more.

Renault and RB did not get on well in recent years despite winning 4 championships together.

Ferrari are in a weak position at the moment and already have 3 teams to supply and probably don't want a high profile team like RB giving them more hassle.


I suspect we could see Renault supplying Alpha Tauri as it would be lower profile and without all the drama that goes with RB. It would give Renault an extra load of data to work from.
Where RB goes is another question, a Fiat badged Ferrari perhaps.
How about Mercs as follows. Merc as Merc. Aston Martin as Aston Martin and RB as SMART - Williams Renault
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Old 2 Oct 2020, 13:08 (Ref:4007987)   #37
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The VAG idea died when F1 switched from the proposed 4 cylinder world engines.

F1 needs to ditch all the restrictions on the recovery/deployment of the electric side of the engine or ditch that part of the PU entirely and go all in on ICE allowing for fully camless engines etc.

This halfway house of not having the best of either technology just seems really counter productive to me.
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Old 2 Oct 2020, 13:10 (Ref:4007989)   #38
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No doubt they have had time and maybe already have something lined up...but it wont be a defacto bespoke solution. Not under the current formula at least.

I suppose there might be hope if Merc sell, but the chances of winning with a customer Merc or Ferrari engine supply, from a historical perspective at least, is slim to none.
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Old 2 Oct 2020, 13:13 (Ref:4007990)   #39
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Originally Posted by Moneyseeker View Post
As the engine regs are stable for the coming years - would make sense for Red Bull to buy the engine project from Honda - bring in a Cosworth or Illen to develop and run it. Would give them control, would enable them to try and get on par/or an advantage over their rivals.

What is an F1 engine project, it is about money - if you have the fundng you can recruit the best people, develop the best product. Red Bull has plenty of money, it would safeguard it's F1 future.
Thats an interesting suggestion.
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Old 2 Oct 2020, 13:14 (Ref:4007991)   #40
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[QUOTE=Moneyseeker;4007932]This is why TOCA have done such a good job with the BTCC, it still has the 'glamour' of some 'works' entries, but they are not allowed to dominate a well built, run and driven TOCA engined car car win races or as may be the case this year, the championship. Yes, we know that performance balancing and other elements help this. Now there will be a TOCA Hybrid power unit to keep the BTCC topical.

Not so much this year. How many TOCA motors have failed trying to keep up?
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Old 2 Oct 2020, 13:17 (Ref:4007993)   #41
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Originally Posted by AnnoyedMoose View Post
The VAG idea died when F1 switched from the proposed 4 cylinder world engines.

F1 needs to ditch all the restrictions on the recovery/deployment of the electric side of the engine or ditch that part of the PU entirely and go all in on ICE allowing for fully camless engines etc.

This halfway house of not having the best of either technology just seems really counter productive to me.
Not so, they are strongly alleged (through Porsche motorsports R&D dept) to have designed and built an F1 engine as recently as 2018...

I think that if RB were aware of Honda pulling out well in advance, they will already be well down the road of sorting the solution.

Likeliest is a a deal having been done with Honda to take over the project, have an existing engine prep firm (Mugen, Illien or An Other) to build/develop them with RB's and another sponsors money.

I cannot see Renault or Merc being possible, and Ferrari only slightly more so.

EDIT as I see chillibowl has just said!
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Old 2 Oct 2020, 13:36 (Ref:4008003)   #42
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Red Bull always seemed to be strangely scathingly critical of Renault. Did they warrant such public criticism?
When RB were paying Renault a shed load of money it was reasonable to expect a promised performance from that motor as well as spares support of new parts and not cobbled together used spares. Palms will be greased and deals done and this will be sorted out and smiles wil be on everyone's faces for the press conference that will happen announcing a PU supply deal with one of the existing suppliers. To presume it is Renault is putting the cart before the horse but they do seem the obvious choice.

No one can tell me that RB along with other interested parties was not aware of Honda's exit plans months ago. As for a spec motor Ferrari will go nuts if it is even suggested and the proposal will disappear never to see the light again even if it does have merit. At the end of the day the same number of teams are on the grid that were there when Honda arrived and they are still there with the same number of PU suppliers so things will be made to work.
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Old 2 Oct 2020, 13:42 (Ref:4008006)   #43
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Not so, they are strongly alleged (through Porsche motorsports R&D dept) to have designed and built an F1 engine as recently as 2018...

I think that if RB were aware of Honda pulling out well in advance, they will already be well down the road of sorting the solution.

Likeliest is a a deal having been done with Honda to take over the project, have an existing engine prep firm (Mugen, Illien or An Other) to build/develop them with RB's and another sponsors money.

I cannot see Renault or Merc being possible, and Ferrari only slightly more so.

EDIT as I see chillibowl has just said!
Sounds like quite a sudden Honda board decision to me, probably the people that RBR deal with at Honda day to day had no idea either. I doubt RBR had that much advance warning.

Remember BE's words when talking about manufacturers - he always said you were only ever a board meeting away from them making the decison to pull out, regardless of what bits of paper are signed. I give you exhibit A - Toyota in that regard...
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Old 2 Oct 2020, 13:46 (Ref:4008008)   #44
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As the engine regs are stable for the coming years - would make sense for Red Bull to buy the engine project from Honda - bring in a Cosworth or Illen to develop and run it. Would give them control, would enable them to try and get on par/or an advantage over their rivals.

What is an F1 engine project, it is about money - if you have the fundng you can recruit the best people, develop the best product. Red Bull has plenty of money, it would safeguard it's F1 future.
The PU is so complex the idea of Illen or a similar company being involved is not feasible. Honda are pulling out for just that reason so for an external supplier to make a go of it the motor will have to be be far simpler than at present.

VW are rumoured to be planning the sale of Lamborghini, Bugatti & Ducatti and are also rumoured along with every other manufacturer to be bleeding cash due to the need to develop electric cars which they have just begun to bring to market and yet to see any ROI on so any suggestion they might get involved seems unlikely. F1 has driven itself up a cul de sac because they allowed the PU suppliers to dictate what they wanted and funnily enough the chief dictator was Renault closely followed by Ferrari.
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Old 2 Oct 2020, 14:13 (Ref:4008015)   #45
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F1 has driven itself up a cul de sac because they allowed the PU suppliers to dictate what they wanted and funnily enough the chief dictator was Renault closely followed by Ferrari.
I thought Renault was aligned with VAG in wanting the 4 cylinder world engine and it was Ferrari and Mercedes who pushed for the V6 with all the bells and whistles? In fact I'm sure I remember Renault was totally opposed to the engines we have now and only agreed in the interest of the sport.
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