CTCRC pre 83 regs changes.

[ascona i2000]

Originally Posted by ken clarke

Having been involved professionally as a competitor & preparer for over 35 years, I have seen all this before. A handful of guys running at the front want to change the rules to suit themselves & 'sod the rest of them' In my tenure of the CSCC/CTCRC as committee member/Competition Secretary/Chairman never a year went past when one or more of the front running club members wanted the rules changing, usually but not always a change of tyre., This was always resisted by the committe as it did not benefit the majority of members. These aforementioned members were usually gone within 5 years having not got what they wanted.

David, you say thechanges came up at last years AGM, yes the question of Toyo 888s was raised and robustly overturned by the membership, however that fact was ignored by the Committe who chose to allow them, noit sure of the legality of this decision as a Limited company should have called an EGM before overturning an AGM decision!!!!! The question of perspex windows was not raised I believe.

When I was heavily involved with the CTCRC I was running up to 7 cars at each race meeting because this is where my customers wished to race, I am still running as many cars but unfortunately for the CTCRC my customers do not wish to race with them any more, their choice. This precludes me from attending many CTCRC meetings due to clashing dates

David, as for the only regulation change. Since I left the committee 10 years ago,

1 Adjustable TCA's allowed.
2 Fibreglass front wings allowed.
3 Non original cylinder heads allowed.
4 Non original cylinder blocks allowed.

there are probably many more but these are the ones I remember immediately so I suggest you read the regulations & compare them to a set 10 years ago when the club ran races with capacity grids in up to 6 championships. How long ago was the last time you had to split a grid for Pre 74, 83, 93. etc?

As previously stated, I have been a club member for 32 years, I have seen many ups & downs, however the one thing that held the club together was stability of regulations. Many times in my role as Chairman/Competition sercretary I was contacted by a past club member who still had his car but due to family commitments had been away from racing for a number of years. When asked what he needed to do to come back out with the club with his car to remain competetive he was told he needed to do nothing as the regs had not changed. A great shame you can no longer do that!!!!!

Ken you are right in saying that the tyre of proposal last year was only the 888 and it was overturned by people, but by people who were not paying to race and turned up from no where. Dont get me wrong the heyday of the clubs group1 series was very good but lets not forgot this was 10-12 years ago, things sometimes have to move on. Unless you have been under a rock you will know that it is and has been struggling. It seems a shame this thread has gone from a simple notification post in to what it is. You do seem to be overly concerned for something that has little interest to you?

[Al Weyman]

In fairness Dave if you post something on a discussion forum expect it to be discussed but I know where you are coming from.

[ken clarke]

Originally Posted by ascona i2000

Ken you are right in saying that the tyre of proposal last year was only the 888 and it was overturned by people, but by people who were not paying to race and turned up from no where. Dont get me wrong the heyday of the clubs group1 series was very good but lets not forgot this was 10-12 years ago, things sometimes have to move on. Unless you have been under a rock you will know that it is and has been struggling. It seems a shame this thread has gone from a simple notification post in to what it is. You do seem to be overly concerned for something that has little interest to you?

The 888 proposal was overturned by paid up club members who had a democratic right to turn up and vote. It was ignored by the committee who broke company law!!! Are you saying those people that voted had no right to?

Who says I am not interested? If I was not interested I would not have replied in the first instance.

Ask yourself why the popularity of the series have dropped in the last 10 years. Could it be that people wanted to run cars that were as period therefore re-creating that element of racing but find with the changes they can no longer compete on a level playing field? That is certainly the case with myself, my son & other friends/customers.

As Al states, this is a discussion forum. Am I not allowed to express an opinion?

[Al Weyman]

I kinda see where you are coming from, there are about 4 cars I can mention that I regularly used to beat and who are now beating me most running in Class G (or invitation class) with Toyos another on a lower profile list 1a and yet another with the wrong engine. In fact towards the end of the season there were more invite cars than legit and I thought at one stage I was one of the only legal car out there!! At least now they will be legal, still beating me but I do have the option to run the other rubber. BTW I was a clear 2 seconds a lap quicker on Kumhos around Snett than the Dunlops, thats how much you are giving away, maybe more. I will pass a word of warning on though, get yer sumps and oiling systems sorted to avoid surge before you upgrade to sticker rubber as it could end in tears. It happened to me in both my cars funny enough on the same Kumhos and at Snett. I have since upgrade the sumps and systems on both cars and no problems now.

[ascona i2000]

Originally Posted by Al Weyman

I kinda see where you are coming from, there are about 4 cars I can mention that I regularly used to beat and who are now beating me most running in Class G (or invitation class) with Toyos another on a lower profile list 1a and yet another with the wrong engine. In fact towards the end of the season there were more invite cars than legit and I thought at one stage I was one of the only legal car out there!! At least now they will be legal, still beating me but I do have the option to run the other rubber. BTW I was a clear 2 seconds a lap quicker on Kumhos around Snett than the Dunlops, thats how much you are giving away, maybe more. I will pass a word of warning on though, get yer sumps and oiling systems sorted to avoid surge before you upgrade to sticker rubber as it could end in tears. It happened to me in both my cars funny enough on the same Kumhos and at Snett. I have since upgrade the sumps and systems on both cars and no problems now.

Point proved then Al, the Majority were not happy as was?


People now have a choice/variety to choose from which will suit different people for different reasons, they can use what supplier they like unlike being held to ransome for those concrete dunlops, and sizes may be cheaper for some cars than others by different tyre manufacturer?
Group 1 cars ran slicks anyway so we have never used the "right" tyre anyway if people want to argue?

[Al Weyman]

Interesting point

[ken clarke]

Originally Posted by ascona i2000

Point proved then Al, the Majority were not happy as was?


People now have a choice/variety to choose from which will suit different people for different reasons, they can use what supplier they like unlike being held to ransome for those concrete dunlops, and sizes may be cheaper for some cars than others by different tyre manufacturer?
Group 1 cars ran slicks anyway so we have never used the "right" tyre anyway if people want to argue?

The alternative way of viewing that is that people were forced to spend money on tyres in order to keep up & will do less races because they will need to spend more on tyres.

4 cars a Majority??? How many in the race????????????????/

What is totally illogical with your argument is that nobody wins but everybody loses. You may go faster but so does everybody else who fits the tyres.

You answered the reasoning why you wanted toyos in your comment 'concrete Dunlops' Most people were happy with them, they were durable long lasting and thus inexpensive. I go back to my comment that the move to these tyres was led by a selfish few who care not about the rest of the club membership & are only interested in making THEIR cars go faster.

David, it seems that you are unhappy with a democratic vote and my right of reply because they are at odds with your personal opinion.

[ascona i2000]

Originally Posted by ken clarke

The alternative way of viewing that is that people were forced to spend money on tyres in order to keep up & will do less races because they will need to spend more on tyres.

4 cars a Majority??? How many in the race????????????????/

What is totally illogical with your argument is that nobody wins but everybody loses. You may go faster but so does everybody else who fits the tyres.

You answered the reasoning why you wanted toyos in your comment 'concrete Dunlops' Most people were happy with them, they were durable long lasting and thus inexpensive. I go back to my comment that the move to these tyres was led by a selfish few who care not about the rest of the club membership & are only interested in making THEIR cars go faster.

David, it seems that you are unhappy with a democratic vote and my right of reply because they are at odds with your personal opinion.

Ken, to put the record straight i had no part in the tyre change, i had no proposal, no attendance at the AGM and no vote!
The durable dunlop argument is rubbish as the people that could afford it were still changing them every race, i assure you... leaving the rest still struggling.
Even last year i can think of 7-8 74/83 cars that dissapeared to other clubs because of tyre options. People were getting fed up of the over priced dunlops knowing that the club had no longer any financial help from dunlop, so why the hang up with them? If they were just £20 cheaper per tyre we probably wouldnt be having this conversation.
I just cant see the big problem with a tyre change, these things happen. There must be other clubs out there doing the same, i wonder if they have this problem.

[ken clarke]

Originally Posted by ascona i2000

Ken, to put the record straight i had no part in the tyre change, i had no proposal, no attendance at the AGM and no vote!
The durable dunlop argument is rubbish as the people that could afford it were still changing them every race, i assure you... leaving the rest still struggling.
Even last year i can think of 7-8 74/83 cars that dissapeared to other clubs because of tyre options. People were getting fed up of the over priced dunlops knowing that the club had no longer any financial help from dunlop, so why the hang up with them? If they were just £20 cheaper per tyre we probably wouldnt be having this conversation.
I just cant see the big problem with a tyre change, these things happen. There must be other clubs out there doing the same, i wonder if they have this problem.

David, you say you had no vote but as a paid up club member you had a vote, whether or not you used it was your personal choice. In a previous post on this thread you complained of people coming out of the woodwork & voting yet you say you did not vote. Strange argument!!

Are you saying that 7/8 cars went to other series purely because of tyres. I find this very hard to believe as I said previously there is no gain as all of their fellow competitors will be on the same rubber. I suggest there were other considerations as well as tyres.

Anyone who has run these tyres for any length of time on a properly set up car for those tyres will tell you that they work best when they are very worn, with just the 2 centre grooves & the rest of the tyre 'slick'. Looking around the paddock at meetings I have attended, most peoples tyres are worn badly & incorrectly thus requiring an early change. My Dunlops have much life left in them after 4 years, I will probably have to change them due to age not wearing out but are still competetive.

If you & others were genuinely concerned about cost & not speed, why not ban list 1b tyres? I can go to my local tyre depot & buy suitable tyres for my car for less than £30 each & they will last a season! I think we all know the answer to that.

David, you know this is not just about a tyre change but a steady erosion of the regulations just to suit a few selfish people who want to go faster.

As I said in my opening post, 'another nail in the coffin of the CTCRC. Just start a new club, The modified saloon car club springs to mind because that is what you are now running, not CLASSIC TOURING CARS!

[ascona i2000]

Originally Posted by ken clarke

David, you say you had no vote but as a paid up club member you had a vote, whether or not you used it was your personal choice. In a previous post on this thread you complained of people coming out of the woodwork & voting yet you say you did not vote. Strange argument!!

Are you saying that 7/8 cars went to other series purely because of tyres. I find this very hard to believe as I said previously there is no gain as all of their fellow competitors will be on the same rubber. I suggest there were other considerations as well as tyres.

Anyone who has run these tyres for any length of time on a properly set up car for those tyres will tell you that they work best when they are very worn, with just the 2 centre grooves & the rest of the tyre 'slick'. Looking around the paddock at meetings I have attended, most peoples tyres are worn badly & incorrectly thus requiring an early change. My Dunlops have much life left in them after 4 years, I will probably have to change them due to age not wearing out but are still competetive.

If you & others were genuinely concerned about cost & not speed, why not ban list 1b tyres? I can go to my local tyre depot & buy suitable tyres for my car for less than £30 each & they will last a season! I think we all know the answer to that.

David, you know this is not just about a tyre change but a steady erosion of the regulations just to suit a few selfish people who want to go faster.

As I said in my opening post, 'another nail in the coffin of the CTCRC. Just start a new club, The modified saloon car club springs to mind because that is what you are now running, not CLASSIC TOURING CARS!

You quite right Ken i chose not to vote as i am happy to race with the club wether it be on 1b tyre choice, or 1a nankang ditchfinder's. You just dont seem to accept that people were going off the dunlops? I believe the club used to run yoko's(might be wrong) was there this much grief when the dunlops were introduced? Its hardly mod saloons from running a different 1b tyre, as lets not forget the d84's are 1b.

[Al Weyman]

Meant to be 1b! When I first started modifing my 2nd gen camaro to race with CTCRC or CSCC (Classic Saloon Car Club) as it was known back then and a much better name and I believe was the one biggest single mistake made by the then committee IMHO, the name change and loosing the web address to Classic Sports Car Club (what a gift on a plate for a fledgling club!) whoever did that should feel most embarassed about it now. I remember going to the website (CSCC) regularly then one day a totally different club appeared and I have to say as they were doing similar things I thought they were one and the same till I looked into it. I am sure I wasnt alone and wonder how many drivers that lost the club. Anyhow I bought brand new Hoosiers after talking with Ken only to find I couldnt use them several years later when I was ready to race the car so they went in the skip such is life!

[Peter Mallett]

There's nothing wrong with changing the rules but if those changes move away from the intent of the championships then it really means the original ethos has gone. The changes to the regs have gone so far from what Group 1 (or in fact 1.5) was that it seems daft to even call the Pre 83s Classic Group 1, because it isn't. I recall Jeff Allam being disqualified from a Brands Hatch round in 1979 because of his TCAs (I do stand to be corrected on this).

Whilst there may be arguments re things like improved brakes which have always been permitted, it isn't that far off what the teams were doing in the 70s. I recall Gerry M telling me about the use of Granada brakes on Capris. But there are already series and championships for these cars that run perspex, stickier tyres, plastic panels etc. It may therefore be argued that the new regs are only going to encourage the existing driver base to migrate elsewhere, rather than the reverse, simply because the grids are bigger and their cars fit (after the new changes).

The thing about the original CSCC was its uniqueness. It had its basis in the BTCC of previous years it wasn't trying to be the fastest classic or historic touring car championship, it was simply aimed at providing reasonably priced races for like minded individuals. Don't think I'm getting all misty eyed, because I'm not. I just thought I'd add some perspective to the discussion. I already have enough places to race.

[ken clarke]

Originally Posted by ascona i2000

You quite right Ken i chose not to vote as i am happy to race with the club wether it be on 1b tyre choice, or 1a nankang ditchfinder's. You just dont seem to accept that people were going off the dunlops? I believe the club used to run yoko's(might be wrong) was there this much grief when the dunlops were introduced? Its hardly mod saloons from running a different 1b tyre, as lets not forget the d84's are 1b.

David, as I said previously, this is not Just about tyres but the erosion of the regulations. You are the one that is making it a tyre issue. I am equally upset about the perspex/lexan decision. Also as I said previously, if these regulation changes were about cost saving and /or safety, there were other more economical/cheaper options. No, these rule changes were about one thing & one thing only, a few selfish front runners wanted to go faster. Now if the rest of the field want to keep up they must spend £400 plus on a set of tyres, without spares & £150+ on a sheet of Lexan plus many hours making & installing these windows in order to compete on a level playing field. In these hard times when you say your concerns are about falling grids how can you justify this increased expense. Club members may need to replace 1 or 2 of their Dunlops but not a full set & the cheapest tyres you can run are the ones you already have. How much are Toyo/Yokohama etc giving the club?

No the club never had Yokohama as a control tyre. Up until 1991 tyres were free, lists 1a or 1b. In 1991 the club took the decision to use the Dunlop D83 & D84J as a control tyre in order to stop spiralling costs due to a tyre war. Some affluent competitors would test many types of tyre thus giving them an advantage. that 1991 decision worked well for 20 years, you obviously think the time is right for another 'tyre war'.

I presume the decision to run perspex/lexan makes it compulsory to be run as I can see no other justification for it apart from going faster.

[medius]

Theres no issue tweaking the regs to attract more cars for one off races. The issue is, the fast people will always accept spending more than the next guy goes hand in hand with being at the sharp end. Look at most championships, Masters, HSCC etc, the quick cars are the ones which have had more money spent on testing and development within the rules. nothing has changed in that respect.

The acid test will be the first CTCRC race weekend of 2012....and I've got no doubt that the grids will be better subscribed than others!

[Al Weyman]

The thing about the original CSCC was its uniqueness. It had its basis in the BTCC of previous years it wasn't trying to be the fastest classic or historic touring car championship, it was simply aimed at providing reasonably priced races for like minded individuals. Don't think I'm getting all misty eyed, because I'm not. I just thought I'd add some perspective to the discussion. I already have enough places to race.

I say one thing to you Pete and Ken on this point and that is 'Use it or Loose it' you guys and others were were not using it even as the rules were end of story. The committee has introduced this to try to get more cars in its as simple as that or quite simply the whole thing will cease to exist make no bones about it this is do or die now. We were down to under 20 cars with amalgamations as it was. What I am afraid has bought this about is nothing to do with this or other rule changes its simply the setting up of series like MSV Toyo saloons and a multitude of offerings from CSCC offering what appears on the face of it better value and easier regs. I personally preferred to run in a championship with some rules at least not a free for all like CSCC and as I dont have anyone to share with there is no way I will do 40 minute stints on my own I also didnt want to race with hordes of PBMBMW's who seem to have scant regard for those on the same grid or so I have been told by several of them one who was amoungst their ranks and is now moving on. If this turns the championships around its good if it doesnt it what is there to loose it was going down anyhow. Lets hope this brave move works. Oh BTW as I said I will not be changing my yellow car so it wont be compulsory as there is no gain for me only expense and I have only just got the nearside winder working after 20 years (dont tell anyone) and have you seen the price of lead for ballast lol?

[Peter Mallett]

Fair comment Al. Like I said I was just adding some perspective.

[ascona i2000]

Originally Posted by Al Weyman

I say one thing to you Pete and Ken on this point and that is 'Use it or Loose it' you guys and others were were not using it even as the rules were end of story. The committee has introduced this to try to get more cars in its as simple as that or quite simply the whole thing will cease to exist make no bones about it this is do or die now. We were down to under 20 cars with amalgamations as it was. What I am afraid has bought this about is nothing to do with this or other rule changes its simply the setting up of series like MSV Toyo saloons and a multitude of offerings from CSCC offering what appears on the face of it better value and easier regs. I personally preferred to run in a championship with some rules at least not a free for all like CSCC and as I dont have anyone to share with there is no way I will do 40 minute stints on my own I also didnt want to race with hordes of PBMBMW's who seem to have scant regard for those on the same grid or so I have been told by several of them one who was amoungst their ranks and is now moving on. If this turns the championships around its good if it doesnt it what is there to loose it was going down anyhow. Lets hope this brave move works. Oh BTW as I said I will not be changing my yellow car so it wont be compulsory as there is no gain for me only expense and I have only just got the nearside winder working after 20 years (dont tell anyone) and have you seen the price of lead for ballast lol?

Very well put Al.....

[ken clarke]

Originally Posted by Al Weyman

I say one thing to you Pete and Ken on this point and that is 'Use it or Loose it' you guys and others were were not using it even as the rules were end of story. The committee has introduced this to try to get more cars in its as simple as that or quite simply the whole thing will cease to exist make no bones about it this is do or die now. We were down to under 20 cars with amalgamations as it was. What I am afraid has bought this about is nothing to do with this or other rule changes its simply the setting up of series like MSV Toyo saloons and a multitude of offerings from CSCC offering what appears on the face of it better value and easier regs. I personally preferred to run in a championship with some rules at least not a free for all like CSCC and as I dont have anyone to share with there is no way I will do 40 minute stints on my own I also didnt want to race with hordes of PBMBMW's who seem to have scant regard for those on the same grid or so I have been told by several of them one who was amoungst their ranks and is now moving on. If this turns the championships around its good if it doesnt it what is there to loose it was going down anyhow. Lets hope this brave move works. Oh BTW as I said I will not be changing my yellow car so it wont be compulsory as there is no gain for me only expense and I have only just got the nearside winder working after 20 years (dont tell anyone) and have you seen the price of lead for ballast lol?

Al, my whole point is that IMHO the changes were not necessarily for the benefit of the club, the changes were pushed through by a selfish few who wish to go faster. As Pete says, we have plenty of other places to race .

[Al Weyman]

Well personally I dont think so, I cannot even remember who proposed them now. I do know however both were voted on and voted in by a substantial majority as it happens albiet slightly changed to exclude windscreen which must still be glass as before. We will see how it all pans out.