Home  
Site Partners: SpotterGuides Veloce Books  
Related Sites: Classic Cars Monthly Your Link Here  

Go Back   TenTenths Motorsport Forum > Historic Racing & Motorsport History > Historic Racing Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 22 Aug 2018, 21:57 (Ref:3845468)   #1
The SpeCTator
Veteran
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
United Kingdom
South East - England
Posts: 550
The SpeCTator should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
SUPER TOURING CARS- what’s the future?

Quote:
Originally Posted by The SpeCTator View Post
Definitely in favour of dropping Super Tourers.
Poor entries prevail at most rounds with Brands scraping the race before the meeting started.
Maybe a couple of feature races a year would be appropriate.
Just 13 Super Tourers entered for Gold Cup. Time for action!
The SpeCTator is offline  
Quote
Old 23 Aug 2018, 12:08 (Ref:3845546)   #2
chunterer
Race Official
Veteran
 
chunterer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location:
Down the end of my road
Posts: 15,697
chunterer is going for a new world record!chunterer is going for a new world record!chunterer is going for a new world record!chunterer is going for a new world record!chunterer is going for a new world record!chunterer is going for a new world record!chunterer is going for a new world record!
Quote:
Originally Posted by The SpeCTator View Post
Just 13 Super Tourers entered for Gold Cup. Time for action!
HSCC has hoped to bolster the grids with older GA/G2 cars but these categories just don't seem to compliment each other for a full series.

Headline events maybe ok though where a big field is the norm.

Several popular series are struggling a bit though, mainly the ones where the hardware is the more expensive.

However, these things tend to be fluid and who knows, next year ST might get bigger grids again.
chunterer is offline  
__________________
"Double Kidney Guv'nah?"
"No thanks George they're still wavin a white flag!"
Quote
Old 23 Aug 2018, 12:17 (Ref:3845548)   #3
Mike Bell
Ten-Tenths Hall of Fame
Veteran
 
Mike Bell's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
England
Attleborough- 5 minutes from Snet!
Posts: 14,830
Mike Bell has a real shot at the championship!Mike Bell has a real shot at the championship!Mike Bell has a real shot at the championship!Mike Bell has a real shot at the championship!Mike Bell has a real shot at the championship!Mike Bell has a real shot at the championship!
Quote:
Originally Posted by chunterer View Post
HSCC has hoped to bolster the grids with older GA/G2 cars but these categories just don't seem to compliment each other for a full series.

Headline events maybe ok though where a big field is the norm.

Several popular series are struggling a bit though, mainly the ones where the hardware is the more expensive.

However, these things tend to be fluid and who knows, next year ST might get bigger grids again.
The size of the entry for the Gold Cup race was mentioned as being the ‘make or break’ for a decision on next season. So not sure..... Yes, Gp2 and GpA cars in the main not a good mix with STs, especially the former- I tried it once! Mark Wright gave it a good go with his Mk2 RS1800, but not sure if he’s still campaigning his current RS500 with them?
Mike Bell is offline  
__________________
Logic will get you from A to B. Imagination will take you everywhere. (Einstein)
Quote
Old 23 Aug 2018, 13:03 (Ref:3845555)   #4
GCCheddaris
Veteran
 
Join Date: Aug 2017
England
Weymouth
Posts: 668
GCCheddaris should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
The only RS500 entered in the Super Touring race according to the HSCC entry list is Paul Mensley's . In the HTCC race Mensley is joined by Max & Ian Goff and Mark Wright/Dave Coyne .
GCCheddaris is offline  
Quote
Old 23 Aug 2018, 14:27 (Ref:3845569)   #5
Sodemo
Veteran
 
Sodemo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2000
United Kingdom
Solihull, West Mids, UK
Posts: 11,147
Sodemo has a real shot at the podium!Sodemo has a real shot at the podium!Sodemo has a real shot at the podium!Sodemo has a real shot at the podium!Sodemo has a real shot at the podium!
There is some behind the scenes grumbling on one of the supertouring BookFace pages which a number of the drivers post on regarding the state of the series and organisation of it. I don't know all the exact gripes but one for sure was the hike in entry fees for this year. Another grumble was about the tyres (Hoosier) though allegedly they are moving back to Dunlop next year (if a series even happens?).
Sodemo is online now  
Quote
Old 23 Aug 2018, 15:10 (Ref:3845577)   #6
Mike Bell
Ten-Tenths Hall of Fame
Veteran
 
Mike Bell's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
England
Attleborough- 5 minutes from Snet!
Posts: 14,830
Mike Bell has a real shot at the championship!Mike Bell has a real shot at the championship!Mike Bell has a real shot at the championship!Mike Bell has a real shot at the championship!Mike Bell has a real shot at the championship!Mike Bell has a real shot at the championship!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sodemo View Post
There is some behind the scenes grumbling on one of the supertouring BookFace pages which a number of the drivers post on regarding the state of the series and organisation of it. I don't know all the exact gripes but one for sure was the hike in entry fees for this year. Another grumble was about the tyres (Hoosier) though allegedly they are moving back to Dunlop next year (if a series even happens?).
Yes, Dunlop move likely if the series keeps going. The idea of trying to attract decent sized grids to a (very) small number of high profile meetings sounds sensible.
Mike Bell is offline  
__________________
Logic will get you from A to B. Imagination will take you everywhere. (Einstein)
Quote
Old 23 Aug 2018, 15:20 (Ref:3845580)   #7
Mike Bell
Ten-Tenths Hall of Fame
Veteran
 
Mike Bell's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
England
Attleborough- 5 minutes from Snet!
Posts: 14,830
Mike Bell has a real shot at the championship!Mike Bell has a real shot at the championship!Mike Bell has a real shot at the championship!Mike Bell has a real shot at the championship!Mike Bell has a real shot at the championship!Mike Bell has a real shot at the championship!
SUPER TOURING CARS- what’s the future?

I’ve taken relevant posts from the Classic thread so the subject can be further discussed here if anyone so desires.....
Mike Bell is offline  
__________________
Logic will get you from A to B. Imagination will take you everywhere. (Einstein)
Quote
Old 23 Aug 2018, 16:54 (Ref:3845593)   #8
Robyn Slater
Veteran
 
Robyn Slater's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
England
Sudbury Suffolk
Posts: 515
Robyn Slater should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sodemo View Post
There is some behind the scenes grumbling on one of the supertouring BookFace pages which a number of the drivers post on regarding the state of the series and organisation of it. I don't know all the exact gripes but one for sure was the hike in entry fees for this year. Another grumble was about the tyres (Hoosier) though allegedly they are moving back to Dunlop next year (if a series even happens?).

The ST entry for Oulton is £40 more than the HTC entry. Price hike??
Robyn Slater is offline  
__________________
"Hot rods" rule.
Quote
Old 23 Aug 2018, 17:44 (Ref:3845603)   #9
Alan Morgan
Veteran
 
Alan Morgan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location:
Addlestone, Surrey
Posts: 1,272
Alan Morgan should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Quote:
Originally Posted by Robyn Slater View Post
The ST entry for Oulton is £40 more than the HTC entry. Price hike??
I'm pretty sure your comment was tongue in cheek Robyn (hence the ROFL)

The HSCC is pretty fair in pricing its entry fees. Super Tourers (complex, very expensive cars which are mainly run by professional teams) pay £8.25 per minute of track time at Oulton. Historic FF2000 cars (Transit engine, moderately-priced, mainly run from a domestic garage) pay £8.27 per minute.

It will be interesting to see what the Super Tourer numbers are like at Knockhill, where the entry is free.
Alan Morgan is offline  
Quote
Old 23 Aug 2018, 18:28 (Ref:3845605)   #10
Mike Bell
Ten-Tenths Hall of Fame
Veteran
 
Mike Bell's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
England
Attleborough- 5 minutes from Snet!
Posts: 14,830
Mike Bell has a real shot at the championship!Mike Bell has a real shot at the championship!Mike Bell has a real shot at the championship!Mike Bell has a real shot at the championship!Mike Bell has a real shot at the championship!Mike Bell has a real shot at the championship!
Enlightening regarding the relative costs, Alan. The Knockhill races have been and gone (4/5 Aug), and Malcolm Smith posted this- https://tentenths.com/forum/showthread.php?t=153094

Worth pointing out that the STCC didn’t start off as an HSCC Championship, and that the club only originally looked after the racing side. They took over the admin and incorporated it into their this ‘portfolio’ this year, at, I believe, the request of the STCC.

Full history of the STCC here- https://www.supertcc.com/history.html
Mike Bell is offline  
__________________
Logic will get you from A to B. Imagination will take you everywhere. (Einstein)
Quote
Old 23 Aug 2018, 18:43 (Ref:3845607)   #11
redshoes
Veteran
 
redshoes's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 1999
Posts: 8,880
redshoes is going for a new world record!redshoes is going for a new world record!redshoes is going for a new world record!redshoes is going for a new world record!redshoes is going for a new world record!redshoes is going for a new world record!redshoes is going for a new world record!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan Morgan View Post
Super Tourers (complex, very expensive cars which are mainly run by professional teams) pay £8.25 per minute of track time at Oulton. Historic FF2000 cars (Transit engine, moderately-priced, mainly run from a domestic garage) pay £8.27 per minute.

It will be interesting to see what the Super Tourer numbers are like at Knockhill, where the entry is free.
Actually many of them aren't run by professional teams, and those that are, aren't what you would call big teams with lots of staff. That said, they are certainly not a 'one man and a van' operation.

Knockhill has already been and gone, and the entry wasn't good. It was 2 weeks after the Silverstone Classic, and 3 weeks prior to Gold Cup, which is part of the problem. These aren't the sort of cars where you can just wipe with an oily rag and be ready for the next race. They need to be partly stripped and rebuilt, which isn't always possible in the timescales with limited resource. (I appreciate they aren't unique in that respect.)
redshoes is offline  
Quote
Old 24 Aug 2018, 08:30 (Ref:3845704)   #12
andy97
Veteran
 
andy97's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
United Kingdom
Castle Donington
Posts: 4,981
andy97 should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridandy97 should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
I actually think we should open this out and ask what the future is for historic racing in the future, for (say) post year 2000 cars. The STs demonstrate how difficult/ expensive it is to run relatively recent cars and the technology is often perishable or kept close by manufacturers. The importance of aero in current cars also doesn't help.

Who can envisage running a "historic" F1 series or LMP Series in 10-20 years time for cars from the early part of the 21st Century?

Running cars from the feeder formulae/ series in the future will have a different issue - there are just too many "one make" formulae. Who wants to see a series for "historic GP2/3" or "World Series by Renault", or Clio Cup etc etc?
andy97 is offline  
__________________
Born in the Midlands, made in the Royal Navy
Quote
Old 24 Aug 2018, 09:11 (Ref:3845712)   #13
VIVA GT
Veteran
 
VIVA GT's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
England
Leicestershire
Posts: 5,647
VIVA GT is going for a new world record!VIVA GT is going for a new world record!VIVA GT is going for a new world record!VIVA GT is going for a new world record!VIVA GT is going for a new world record!VIVA GT is going for a new world record!VIVA GT is going for a new world record!VIVA GT is going for a new world record!
Quote:
Originally Posted by andy97 View Post
I actually think we should open this out and ask what the future is for historic racing in the future, for (say) post year 2000 cars. The STs demonstrate how difficult/ expensive it is to run relatively recent cars and the technology is often perishable or kept close by manufacturers. The importance of aero in current cars also doesn't help.

Who can envisage running a "historic" F1 series or LMP Series in 10-20 years time for cars from the early part of the 21st Century?

Running cars from the feeder formulae/ series in the future will have a different issue - there are just too many "one make" formulae. Who wants to see a series for "historic GP2/3" or "World Series by Renault", or Clio Cup etc etc?
I think you've hit the nail firmly on the head here Andy. The extra complication (and electronicification) of later racing cars is going to be a huge barrier to keeping them running, and especially keeping them running at an affordable level. Back in the day Super Touring Cars were either works run or at least very professionally run cars with a budget to match. Some of what was state of the art technology back then is maybe obsolete now. It's OK to have engine parts re-made (if you can afford it) but some of the electronics just cannot be reproduced nowadays.
VIVA GT is online now  
__________________
Incognito: An Italian phrase meaning Nice Gearchange!
Quote
Old 24 Aug 2018, 09:33 (Ref:3845715)   #14
andy97
Veteran
 
andy97's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
United Kingdom
Castle Donington
Posts: 4,981
andy97 should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridandy97 should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Quote:
Originally Posted by VIVA GT View Post
I think you've hit the nail firmly on the head here Andy. The extra complication (and electronicification) of later racing cars is going to be a huge barrier to keeping them running, and especially keeping them running at an affordable level. Back in the day Super Touring Cars were either works run or at least very professionally run cars with a budget to match. Some of what was state of the art technology back then is maybe obsolete now. It's OK to have engine parts re-made (if you can afford it) but some of the electronics just cannot be reproduced nowadays.
I think I read somewhere that McLaren were buying up old lap tops of 1990s vintage, because they were the only ones with the ability to run the software and/ or the floppy discs to examine the electronics in the McLaren F1 road car!

I worry that I cant get front wings for my Audi Quattro; in the future, we will have racing cars sitting in museums that cant be started because the software is corrupt, the microchip has deteriorated and the hybrid system doesn't work.
andy97 is offline  
__________________
Born in the Midlands, made in the Royal Navy
Quote
Old 24 Aug 2018, 12:29 (Ref:3845762)   #15
Moneyseeker
Veteran
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 2,169
Moneyseeker is going for a new lap record!Moneyseeker is going for a new lap record!Moneyseeker is going for a new lap record!Moneyseeker is going for a new lap record!Moneyseeker is going for a new lap record!Moneyseeker is going for a new lap record!
Quote:
Originally Posted by redshoes View Post
Actually many of them aren't run by professional teams, and those that are, aren't what you would call big teams with lots of staff. That said, they are certainly not a 'one man and a van' operation.

Knockhill has already been and gone, and the entry wasn't good. It was 2 weeks after the Silverstone Classic, and 3 weeks prior to Gold Cup, which is part of the problem. These aren't the sort of cars where you can just wipe with an oily rag and be ready for the next race. They need to be partly stripped and rebuilt, which isn't always possible in the timescales with limited resource. (I appreciate they aren't unique in that respect.)

There were certainly more cars when the ST races were more of a one off than a series and I imagine some of the owners are very short of parts, I believe Cleland had to have some parts fabricated for his Vectra as there were none around - or none of use as some of the parts that do exists are over 25 years old.
Moneyseeker is offline  
Quote
Old 28 Aug 2018, 10:14 (Ref:3846699)   #16
Sodemo
Veteran
 
Sodemo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2000
United Kingdom
Solihull, West Mids, UK
Posts: 11,147
Sodemo has a real shot at the podium!Sodemo has a real shot at the podium!Sodemo has a real shot at the podium!Sodemo has a real shot at the podium!Sodemo has a real shot at the podium!
Sad to see only 5-6 real super tourers turn up at Oulton Park.

I do wonder what will happen next year. I spoke to a few of the drivers, they dont really have the answer to the problems of grid numbers. One driver said part of it is down to no one really trying to rally numbers in order to get the grids up. Another driver said that the better 2019 Dunlop tyres may bring a few drivers back.

Is there any way they could "pool resources"?. I know that sounds easier than it would be in reality, but there needs to be some kind of universal support across all cars or something. I saw one team struggling to get a car going, whilst the engineers from another team looks on. Its debatable whether they could have helped, but its that kind of thing which I think perhaps needs looking at. These cars can be (are) temperamental and require lots of maintenance, so if there was a common support network / agreement maybe that could help?

I know Dave Jarman and Johnny Westbrook were doing something along those lines (probably unofficially) in years gone by, as id see Johnny with his head deep in a different car's engine bay every time I saw him, however as I understand it they both have nothing to do with the series now and its solely being run by the HSCC.
Sodemo is online now  
Quote
Old 28 Aug 2018, 10:34 (Ref:3846704)   #17
Mike Harte
Veteran
 
Mike Harte's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
United Kingdom
W. Yorkshire
Posts: 5,469
Mike Harte will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameMike Harte will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameMike Harte will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameMike Harte will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameMike Harte will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameMike Harte will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameMike Harte will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameMike Harte will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameMike Harte will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Fame
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sodemo View Post
I saw one team struggling to get a car going, whilst the engineers from another team looks on. Its debatable whether they could have helped, but its that kind of thing which I think perhaps needs looking at. These cars can be (are) temperamental and require lots of maintenance, so if there was a common support network / agreement maybe that could help?

In a way, this just reflects our modern society, more's the pity. We all seem to live in our own small bubble.

50 odd years ago, it was not uncommon for rival teams to help out those in trouble on a regular basis. I am forever grateful to the Boreham team of Bert Avard lying under my car helping my lads remove the gearbox so that we could replace the broken flywheel bolts that had sheared off; and in a horrendous thunder storm with the rain coming down like stair rods. Oh, and Bert provided the bolts as well.

And my way of repaying them was to beat their man, Roger Taylor for the overall win - my very first. And it was one of the very few times that I outran Roger.

Now, I am sure that some of that still exists today. But I am sure that it is less common.
Mike Harte is offline  
Quote
Old 28 Aug 2018, 12:29 (Ref:3846715)   #18
redshoes
Veteran
 
redshoes's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 1999
Posts: 8,880
redshoes is going for a new world record!redshoes is going for a new world record!redshoes is going for a new world record!redshoes is going for a new world record!redshoes is going for a new world record!redshoes is going for a new world record!redshoes is going for a new world record!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sodemo View Post
Sad to see only 5-6 real super tourers turn up at Oulton Park.
8 entered, 7 raced.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sodemo View Post
I do wonder what will happen next year. I spoke to a few of the drivers, they dont really have the answer to the problems of grid numbers. One driver said part of it is down to no one really trying to rally numbers in order to get the grids up. Another driver said that the better 2019 Dunlop tyres may bring a few drivers back.
It seems to be that there is no one big thing that is the root of the problem, or at least not one that everyone can agree on.

Tyres, entry fees, number of meetings, choice of venues, dates, hospitality, lack of promotion, availability of spares, running cost, rival series (for non-ST entries), and probably a few I've forgotten. Depending on who you speak to, any or all of the above are either a huge problem, a minor irritation, or not an issue at all; and everyone you speak to will give you a different combination of answer.
redshoes is offline  
Quote
Old 12 Sep 2018, 23:57 (Ref:3849748)   #19
PDS
Veteran
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
England
Medway Towns
Posts: 679
PDS should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Quote:
Originally Posted by redshoes View Post

Tyres, entry fees, number of meetings, choice of venues, dates, hospitality, lack of promotion, availability of spares, running cost, rival series (for non-ST entries), and probably a few I've forgotten. Depending on who you speak to, any or all of the above are either a huge problem, a minor irritation, or not an issue at all; and everyone you speak to will give you a different combination of answer.
Another reason you missed Redshoes is Old age! And I don't mean the cars!
I know of at least 3 drivers that have 'Retired' from racing and between them they have access to 8 cars.
There are other drivers that have found other cars to race in other classes, so no Peugeot 406, Opel Astra, Alfa 155 and extra Cavaliers.


Although I have been told by one owner that he has the answer and is expecting to race all 3 of his Supertourers during 2019.


I for one believe he will..
PDS is offline  
__________________
I think animal testing is a terrible idea: they all get nervous and give the wrong answers...!
...........Steven Fry
Quote
Old 13 Sep 2018, 07:22 (Ref:3849785)   #20
zefarelly
Veteran
 
zefarelly's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
European Union
Posts: 9,710
zefarelly has a real shot at the podium!zefarelly has a real shot at the podium!zefarelly has a real shot at the podium!zefarelly has a real shot at the podium!
I thought this was a branch of the Goodwood thread about saloon cars
zefarelly is offline  
Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Heritage Touring Cars (Group A and C Touring Cars) 2018 David Towe Australasian Touring Cars. 2 27 Nov 2017 08:05
[BTCC] Touring Car Worldwide and Super Touring Magazine Craig Touring Car Racing 1 31 Jul 2010 14:17
Why are touring cars called touring cars? AR-CoolC Touring Car Racing 2 14 Jul 2008 16:10
The future of Touring Cars redshoes Touring Car Racing 22 10 Aug 2003 22:37
BTC-Touring v Super Touring Alfa Fan Touring Car Racing 34 25 Jul 2002 22:32


All times are GMT. The time now is 12:11.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Original Website Copyright © 1998-2003 Craig Antil. All Rights Reserved.
Ten-Tenths Motorsport Forums Copyright © 2004-2021 Royalridge Computing. All Rights Reserved.
Ten-Tenths Motorsport Forums Copyright © 2021-2022 Grant MacDonald. All Rights Reserved.