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Old 10 Jun 2011, 23:13 (Ref:2895417)   #51
grantp
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grantp should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridgrantp should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridgrantp should be qualifying in the top 3 on the grid
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Originally Posted by Thundersports View Post

Watching it I thought the Honda had better traction rather than acceleration out the corners hence faster in a straight line?
Better traction will result in better acceleration, all things being equal, and therefore reaching higher speed sooner. Absolute power mostly only significantly affects top end speed and how quickly you reach the maximum attainable velocity (assuming a flat surface and equal drag factors.)

To be able to drive past with ease on a typical UK circuit straight - most of them not so long - suggest not merely more power but more effective use of traction and/or much lower drag at lower speeds. (I'm assuming here that corner exit speed of both cars is the same. It may not be - a faster exit could be the key in which case it's a question of car setup and racecraft.)

If the corner previous to the straight on which the drive-by overtake occurs is relatively high speed the traction influence may be reduced and the outright power/drag factor could be the primary consideration. That is basically what one sees from the new F1 toys and the overtaking zones. I suppose it is just possible that the Hondas can somehow make especially good use of a 'tow' from anything ahead of them and offer the drivers a useful powerband at the top of the range for completing a pass once they are out of the slipstream.

In that context the mapping of power delivery could be significantly more influential than the maximum power available. In which case defining what steps to take to achieve the promised parity could be just a little tricky. I think it is reasonable to suggest that power mapping creativity is probably somewhat greater with a turbo available as a tuning tool.
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Old 10 Jun 2011, 23:26 (Ref:2895420)   #52
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grant I didn't word that well I mean't better acceleration due to traction rather than due to power, the mapping theory is something I hadn't thought of.
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Old 11 Jun 2011, 21:11 (Ref:2896060)   #53
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chunder should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridchunder should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridchunder should be qualifying in the top 3 on the grid
ASCAR is pikey racing huh? Thundersports, what a great series that was! Jeez

ASCAR is based on perhaps the most successful racing formula of all time, it simply didn't work over here because we are too arrogant and used to other forms of racing to take it seriously. And the so called pro racers didnt like guys like John Steward, Rob Speak and Colin White beating them when they were allowed to change the cars around to suit their styles, rather than being forced to use a setup given to them by the team, oops did I let a little secret out of the bag there? Maybe.

It was poorly pitched, poorly marketed and the tracks were designed to fail as the MSA never wanted them in thw first place!

As for Plato, he has a very vaild point. The Chevys and BMW are at a total disadvantage to most turbo cars, as he says, you dont have to be an idiot to realise this.

He gobs off about it coz people listen, and I for one have never been a huge Plato fan, but in all honesty he doesnt have to race anymore. But if he does it would seem fair to at least allow him to race with some sort of parity. That he can't right now is obvious to anyone with any sense, and O'Neill, Collard, and any other N/A runner
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Old 11 Jun 2011, 23:01 (Ref:2896208)   #54
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Its getting boring now, all the politics, BTCC is gonna start getting a bad name again and if it means making the turbo cars slower just for this season then i think it should be done to protect the image of the sport and satisfy the s2000 spec cars. I thought Jasons statement after race 2 on camera was a bit over the top at the time but then i thought if i was as good of a driver as he is and put in the same situation im pretty sure i'd do all i could do get the turbos slowed down.

There have been times though that people always bring up about the TDI, but the fact is that the TDI didnt win the championship where as a turbo car almost certainly will this year. Dont get me wrong i think the turbo cars are awesome pieces of kit, the noise they make and the atmosphere they produce when at race meetings as a spectator is immense, but if they are gonna cause top drivers who havent got the turbo engine to resort to complaining on tv then surely alan gow needs to do something more to help equalise the two classes of car out there this year
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Old 12 Jun 2011, 14:47 (Ref:2897126)   #55
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There have been times though that people always bring up about the TDI, but the fact is that the TDI didnt win the championship where as a turbo car almost certainly will this year.
The TDIs were MASSIVELY faster than anything else that season, they didn't win the championship through a combination of terrible luck and poor reliability.
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Old 12 Jun 2011, 22:27 (Ref:2897616)   #56
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The turbos are further ahead of NA in speed traps this season than the TDIs were. Quite significantly more so.
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Old 13 Jun 2011, 17:07 (Ref:2898227)   #57
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chunder should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridchunder should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridchunder should be qualifying in the top 3 on the grid
I think the issue is that the turbo cars don't suffer to such a high degree the same issues the TDI cars do.

In that... They are not as heavy, they dont wear out the tyres anywhere near as much and as a result do not suffer so much at the end of races.

Yes the TD9's had huge torque, but that was hard to manage with a fwd and low grip. The turbo's have more torque but its not as unmanageable. While still having the increased power, ram air effect a turbo engine has
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Old 13 Jun 2011, 17:56 (Ref:2898259)   #58
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The problem is that the only way to properly ballance the performance of the two is to either get the turbo cars to get rid of the turbo's, or add turbo's to the NA cars.

But of course it's not that simple, and that would defeat the point of the introductory phase.

So, if we can't do that there will be a performance difference.
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Old 16 Jun 2011, 06:32 (Ref:2899959)   #59
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I don't understand why the initial baselines for parity were not taken from dyno pulls. Forget about setup, just equalize the power output, and then whomever has the best setup can get the most drive out of the corner.

From an equal power baseline, then you can look at the weight difference of the NGTC engine package and decide if that should work into an allowance for the turbo engines to have a little extra power.

In the US, in club racing, we've gone through a couple of steps of engine parity, with the 2.0 litre Zetec coming online against the old "Pinto" engine, and now adding the 1.6 liter Honda engine to run with the Kent-based engines in Formula Ford (now renamed Formula F since it's not just Ford). In both cases, the new package was brought in beneath the existing package to start. Obviously, in a professional series, you want to aim for parity straight away, but still, the turbo cars are all looking very quick in a straight line, even when they aren't Hondas.

If dyno pulls ARE being used...then I'm sorry I didn't know that. But I certainly haven't heard the feedback from Alan Gow that makes me think this is all being done on a precise "we are taking 5hp away" type of basis.

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Old 18 Jun 2011, 14:41 (Ref:2901430)   #60
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There have been times though that people always bring up about the TDI, but the fact is that the TDI didnt win the championship where as a turbo car almost certainly will this year.
As an argument it's invalid for the much more fundamental reason Jason himself brought up, that no-one ever promised that the TDI and NA would have parity. They DID promise the Turbo and NA in 2011/12 would.
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Old 18 Jun 2011, 14:52 (Ref:2901438)   #61
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and the baby gets his own way, i hope he gets taken off tomorrow

Last edited by trebor901; 18 Jun 2011 at 14:58.
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Old 18 Jun 2011, 14:59 (Ref:2901442)   #62
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Craner Curves should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridCraner Curves should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridCraner Curves should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridCraner Curves should be qualifying in the top 3 on the grid
Grow up.
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Old 19 Jun 2011, 13:00 (Ref:2901843)   #63
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and the baby gets his own way, i hope he gets taken off tomorrow
That's one of the most moronic things I've ever read on 10 Tenths.

Well done.
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