early german photos

[djb]

Interesting that you mentioned that strad, as the thought crossed my mind when I saw it as well, especially the back part with the vertical part that made me think of the white painted part of some Coopers I have seen in photos. I didn't mention this as my knowledge pales in comparison to all of you folks. Another thing I thought of was while the Auto Union of the 30's was a good 20 years ahead of the rear-engine revolution, it's size was so much different than the Coopers et al that put the final nail in the front engined coffin. This car however is much more similiar to the late 50's ones in size, but still it was 10 years or so before the mid engine thing really took flight.

I find it curious to what factors were the problem behind it taking 10, 20 years before the mid engine concept became obviously superior to front, when cars like these existed. Was it simply lack of proper development? In the Auto-Unions case, was it weight, power and tire limitations? I guess that I have to find some proper "Cooper story" writings.

djb

[Stoffer Green]

Strad and djb, I suggest that it looks much more like the Ferry Porsche designed Cisitalia which was built in about 1949. This was a brilliant radical design with 4 wheeldrive and a flat 12 supercharged engine with 450odd Bhp. I believe it was so expensive that it brought Cisitalia down.
Personally I can't see that the Sokol has much in commmon with the Cooper 1100, apart from the position of the engine.
As for the Auto-Unions they were difficult to drive, and only great drivers could get the best from them. Weight itself was not the problem because they were designed for a formula originally based on weight and not on engine size.

[Vitesse]

That would be this one Stoffer - very similar!

[Maisie]

That's a beauty!!

[Stoffer Green]

Vitesse
Brilliant, you have some very good sources. I shall have to learn how to post photograghs, though it would be impossible in office hours!
The Sokol is strikingly similar, isn't it?

[strad]

Not the same..just similar.....

[djb]

Strad, many months ago, I asked about the 500cc cars and had some interesting responses, as well as a photo of a full bodied streamlined one.

Regarding the porsche-cisitalia. I know that pre-war there had been some front wheel drive cars, but was this car very unique in having 4 wheel drive for its time? Other than the Willys jeeps, I am not familiar with 4wd stuff, and especially not anything designed for the track.
Any ideas?

[Vitesse]

In 1933 Harry Miller built two 4-wd cars which were run at Indy by Gus Schrader and Ed McDonough. Neither finished, but in early 1934 one was brought across the Atlantic for Peter de Paolo to drive. At Tripoli it was a full nineteen seconds off the pace, but still finished sixth. It next appeared at AVUS - in the race which started this thread!! - and was running quite competitively when two con-rods let go and almost sawed the engine in two, right in front of the main stand. There is an oft-repeated story that bits of the engine flew into the stand, narrowly missing Hitler: one important detail is wrong though - Hitler wasn't actually there!

I'm not sure what happened to that car, but the other one continued to run at Indy until 1937 as the 4WD Special. Mauri Rose placed it fourth in 1936.

[Ray Bell]

Jeep? Jeep/

Did somebody mention Jeep?

Ray Mitchell, almost the winner of the 1947 Australian Grand Prix... strangely enough he was beaten by tyre wear:



Oh, it had a Ford V8 engine and drove only through the rear wheels.

But in Queensland there was a car built by Snow Sefton and raced at Strathpine and Lowood, it had front wheel drive, rear wheel drive or four wheel drive according to Snow's taste on the day, used the Ford V8 engine in a Jeep... I have a photo somewhere... but who knows where?

[djb]

Those 60's Indy turbine jobs were 4wd weren't they? When was it banned for Indy and F1 races?

[wheelie]

Can anyone tell me what kind of car is that?
http://www.pbase.com/image/955630

[TimD]

Good on yer, Ray. Great picture of a wild device. Thanks for that one. Puts me in mind of the thinking behind the old AJB-Steyr.

Wheelie, that link you've offered up is an Auto Union streamliner from about 1936/7. I haven't my Sheldon book close to hand, so I can't say who's driving it. It's presumably at Avus. Perhaps one of our experten can pin it down more closely than I can.

Good photo, too!

[Ray Bell]

I weakened... the Auto Union was identified as 1934 wasn't it?

[strad]

Wheelie;
You have caused me great consternation...I have this exact picture in one of my books (and I thought in my computer) and I'll be damned if I can find it.
Our experts echo my guess...Auto-Union @ AVUS...but I know I have more but can't find it...and thus you have driven me crazy, partly through realization of how disorganized my materials is.
I would wager that Leif knows exactly.

[Vitesse]

Strad, the reason you recognise it is because it's one of the pictures we started this thread with!!!

Wheelie - it is indeed an Auto Union, with special streamlined bodywork for high-speed circuits and record breaking. This is a C-type, chassis number 76006/42/24, being driven by the great Bernd Rosemeyer in the AVUSrennen on May 30th 1937. He finished second in his heat and fourth in the final.