[Official] Monaco Grand Prix 2019: Grand Prix Weekend Thread

[JacobP]

Originally Posted by Richard Casto

Its premature to say Honda has leapfrogged Ferrari in the power unit department.
Richard

Why discuss only the power unit? The power unit and the chassis combination is what really matters.

We probably don't have yet a certain math-like proof that RedBull-Honda is better than Ferrari, but I think most would agree by now that RedBull and Ferrari are in the same in the ballpark of performance, add or subtract. I would bet that RedBull will definitively overtake Ferrari by the end of season. Why? If you followed many of the recent seasons, I think we can agree that Ferrari is doing a lousy job of car development past the mid-season. I mean, look at 2018, 2017, 2013, etc. It feels like their car is getting slower past the mid-season, with each race. Well, in reality, their car was just as fast as early in the season, but others have leapfrogged them.

[JacobP]

Originally Posted by Peter Mallett

Did anyone spot EJ's verdict on the current Ferrari management? He suggested that Ferrari should re employ Stefano Domenicali.

Why end only at Domenicali? I don't get why they fired Maurizio Arrivabene last year. He came to Ferrari in 2014-15, and past that moment the team rose from the ashes. Yes, Ferrari lost to Mercedes last season, but it was a really close fight, and the more important thing was that under Maurizio the team was doing better than the last season. The trend was really good IMHO.

[Peter Mallett]

I think there were communication issues with Arrivabene, but you make a good point.

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by JacobP

Why discuss only the power unit? The power unit and the chassis combination is what really matters.

We probably don't have yet a certain math-like proof that RedBull-Honda is better than Ferrari, but I think most would agree by now that RedBull and Ferrari are in the same in the ballpark of performance, add or subtract. I would bet that RedBull will definitively overtake Ferrari by the end of season. Why? If you followed many of the recent seasons, I think we can agree that Ferrari is doing a lousy job of car development past the mid-season. I mean, look at 2018, 2017, 2013, etc. It feels like their car is getting slower past the mid-season, with each race. Well, in reality, their car was just as fast as early in the season, but others have leapfrogged them.

Sorry, I incorrectly read the post I was quoting as being about Honda and not Red Bull. I think Red Bull as a total package is improving. While it would be interesting to see, I am currently doubtful they will overtake Ferrari by seasons end, but who knows?

Richard

[Taxi645]

To improve overtaking in Monaco, sacrilege or possible improvement?


Idea being that it helps overtaking at the chicane at the end of the tunnel by:

1 Making it easier to drive an alternative line and stay closer to the front car accelerating towards the tunnel.

2 Slightly longer straight allowing the natural slip stream to have more time (marginal effect is suspect).

3 Slightly higher speed approaching the chicane, resulting in longer praking zones and more chance of an overtake. (again marginal effect I suspect).


Side effect would be to have a nice more fluid chicane added to the Monaco track at Mirabeau Bas.

Second nice side effect you get a very nice shot of the sea there with the correct camera position.

[Peter Mallett]

Monaco is what it is. Leave it alone. Improve the cars before trying to change the circuit.

[sparkione]

Originally Posted by JacobP

Why end only at Domenicali? I don't get why they fired Maurizio Arrivabene last year.

Job security as Ferrari's team manager is about on a par with that of a Premier League equivalent. If you don't keep bringing home the bacon then you're toast, if I may mix and mangle my metaphors. The problem they've all had the last few years is the juggernaut that is Mercedes, and the brilliance of Lulu. On current form, I don't think Binotto's prospects are any too rosy...

[djinvicta]

Originally Posted by Peter Mallett

Monaco is what it is. Leave it alone. Improve the cars before trying to change the circuit.

Agreed Peter. It's magic...Iconic setting on public roads.

I still say Honda have stepped forward with their engine development. Last year or two they were blowing up every race..

[Taxi645]

Originally Posted by Peter Mallett

Monaco is what it is. Leave it alone. Improve the cars before trying to change the circuit.

Monaco was was it..... until it was changed, several times!

Generally I wholeheartedly agree with your statement Improve the cars before trying to change the circuit. However that implies that at Monaco the main issue are the cars. I don't believe that is the case within reasonable limits. Even if the 2021 cars are excellent at wheel to wheel fighting, Monaco will still be too hard to overtake.

What you could see in this years race was that Verstappen had excess speed at the hairpin. He was able to take different lines, but there was no room to make use of it. The right hander onto the tunnel is just too sharp and then it's just a matter of using the available traction earlier and just storm off.

With the above revision those alternative lines and excess speed could actually be used to stay closer into and through the tunnel, making overtaking somewhat possible. Should be easy enough to test in a simulator.


https://www.carthrottle.com/post/how...e-f1-calendar/

To give an impression of what the area looks like:




P.S. While they're at it, move the apex of the chicane 1-2m in the direction of the arrow, so that at least can get through it side by side. Now standard procedure when going side by side there is to fly over the curb for one of the cars or bail out all together.

[Compromised]

I see nothing wrong with changing aspects of Monaco - as you said, it's been done before so there is precident. Something like your proposal would make sense, a "legitimate" overtaking spot. Knowing that drivers (even Max) can't really overtake kind of made me question why I was watching - waiting for a crash or mistake? Seems slightly macarbe.

Spa, Monza, Silverstone etc all changed and survived. Id love for everything to stay the same but unfortunately nothing does

[chunterer]

Wasn't there some stories a few years back about a new commercial and residential structure being added to the harbour area so that the additional roads could form the extended GP layout?

[wnut]

Originally Posted by JacobP

Why end only at Domenicali? I don't get why they fired Maurizio Arrivabene last year. He came to Ferrari in 2014-15, and past that moment the team rose from the ashes. Yes, Ferrari lost to Mercedes last season, but it was a really close fight, and the more important thing was that under Maurizio the team was doing better than the last season. The trend was really good IMHO.

They got rid of Arrivabene because Binotto was not prepared to continue under his leadership, and Binotto's produced a good car whilst Arrivabene's tactical management was awful.

[Akrapovic]

Do we really want to change Monaco to aid overtaking?

At most circuits, the lack of excitement isn't due to lack of overtaking. It's due to the lack of potential. Cars sit in dirty air and cannot pass, and when they do it's just a DRS drive by. The problem is they either can't pass, or they get gifted it.

Monaco was completely different. Passing was extremely hard, but Max was not sitting back in dirty air completely unable to approach Lewis. And DRS was not able to gift him the pass. He crawled all over the back of Lewis and couldn't quite pull it off. If he was that close at another track and couldn't do it, it'd also be exciting. The potential for a pass (or incident) is there - that's whats normally missing.

I say leave Monaco as it is. That was an excellent race.

[Greem]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

I say leave Monaco as it is. That was an excellent race.

That ^^^

Worth noting that despite all the moaning this year and last, both Hamilton (with poor tyres) and Ricciardo (broken PU and gears) still managed to metronomically put the car where it needed to be, lap after lap after lap, such that the following cars couldn't get past.

In an era of instant gratification, watching drivers place the car in the exact same place for two hours is something to savour.

Unfortunately, this is also called "boring" by some people!

[Taxi645]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

Do we really want to change Monaco to aid overtaking?

At most circuits, the lack of excitement isn't due to lack of overtaking. It's due to the lack of potential. Cars sit in dirty air and cannot pass, and when they do it's just a DRS drive by. The problem is they either can't pass, or they get gifted it.

Monaco was completely different. Passing was extremely hard, but Max was not sitting back in dirty air completely unable to approach Lewis. And DRS was not able to gift him the pass. He crawled all over the back of Lewis and couldn't quite pull it off. If he was that close at another track and couldn't do it, it'd also be exciting. The potential for a pass (or incident) is there - that's whats normally missing.

I say leave Monaco as it is. That was an excellent race.

Originally Posted by Greem

That ^^^

Worth noting that despite all the moaning this year and last, both Hamilton (with poor tyres) and Ricciardo (broken PU and gears) still managed to metronomically put the car where it needed to be, lap after lap after lap, such that the following cars couldn't get past.

In an era of instant gratification, watching drivers place the car in the exact same place for two hours is something to savour.

Unfortunately, this is also called "boring" by some people!

I believe the examples Greem posts actually proves that the potential for a pass (within reasonable limits) isn't there. Even a car with 150hp missing or tyres that are 30 laps past optimal, is able to keep the car behind. Why? Because overtaking is not possible within reason and a good driver who pays enough attention will keep the other guy behind.

I have said many times that overtaking shouldn't be easy and at Monaco the challenge should be a fair bit harder still. It's become part of the history of the place. I'm not saying it should be easy or that we should be instantly gratified or anything like that. That's a bit black and white. What I'm saying is there should be a balance and that balance should even tilt further to extremely hard at Monaco. Just that it shouldn't be practical impossible like it is now.

My proposal would probably hand the guy following perhaps a mere 2 to 4 meters exit-ting the tunnel to give him something of a shot.

What we might have seen is Verstappen having a propper go 10 laps earlier, getting a few meters closer and we would have a proper fight through the chicane maybe making the pass or maybe not. Now Lewis had a bad side ways exit and Verstappen braked extremely late and the best we could get was front wheel next to back wheel, one going straight and that was that.


P.S. Personally I think apart from the overtaking it could at a very interesting addition to the track. A nice chicane heading into a 180 degree bend, I think would be quite exciting to drive compared to the somewhat plain Portier bend. A nice combination of corners all the way down from Mirabeau Haute.

The 180 degree turn is slow enough that aero has not that much influence yet, but is still long and predictable enough to let the following guys creep up the gearbox. The guy in front has a nice dilemma; take a wide entrance, late apex to maximize exit speed onto the tunnel straight, but risk keeping the door open for a lunge to the inside or do I keep the door closed but compromise my exit speed so I might get in trouble at the end of the tunnel?

[crmalcolm]

Do I think something is wrong with Monaco? - no.
Do I think something must be changed with the track? - no.
Do I think changes to the track should be considered? - yes.

Why? It would be wrong to accept the status quo with any track blindly, even one as unique as the Monaco circuit.

I don't think there is anything wrong with seeing a driver defend a place for >30 laps, whether they are successful or not. But, all tracks should be reviewed regularly to see if they can be improved.

Those improvements don't have to be for the purpose of more overtaking, more entertainment, or as a response to something that is perceived to be flawed elsewhere. They might also be to improve safety, or to give better facilities in paddock areas or for spectators. What they must not do is make something worse though, particularly the safety of everyone involved.

In this case, I think the proposed changes may prove beneficial to the track, but must be considered carefully.

Portier is currently a slow corner and this dictates the eventual arrival speed at Nouvelle. The proposed changes make the entry speed to the tunnel significantly higher, and therefore a higher approach speed to Nouvelle. I appreciate this increases the braking zone length, but does this excess speed mean the corner can remain as safe?

How much run off will cars need if they approach the corner at an extra 20-30 kph or more over their current speed?

[jimclark]

Duplicate

[jimclark]

Originally Posted by Greem

That ^^^

Worth noting that despite all the moaning this year and last, both Hamilton (with poor tyres) and Ricciardo (broken PU and gears) still managed to metronomically put the car where it needed to be, lap after lap after lap, such that the following cars couldn't get past.

In an era of instant gratification, watching drivers place the car in the exact same place for two hours is something to savour.

Unfortunately, this is also called "boring" by some people!

Times a gazillion. :thumbsup:

Absolutely.

I shall PM you if you're accepting.

Edit: Or not......

[Greem]

Originally Posted by jimclark

I shall PM you if you're accepting.

Edit: Or not......

Um... feel free to reply to the one I sent you. PMs are open (as I believe the young people say these days)

[Taxi645]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

Portier is currently a slow corner and this dictates the eventual arrival speed at Nouvelle. The proposed changes make the entry speed to the tunnel significantly higher, and therefore a higher approach speed to Nouvelle. I appreciate this increases the braking zone length, but does this excess speed mean the corner can remain as safe?

How much run off will cars need if they approach the corner at an extra 20-30 kph or more over their current speed?

Thanks for the open minded approach. I wouldn't overestimate the speed difference at the end of the tunnel. There would only be added about 60-65m to the start of the tunnel straight. As you all know speed increases regressively after traction limitations are overcome so expect speed delta at braking point to be in the 4-8km/h region. As said that effect would be marginal.

[RWill2073]

So nobody else caught Lewis post race in interview saying "I was never pitting"? After all the whining about wanting to pit, needing tires, etc, he says that post race. It perfectly encapsulates why, although an incredible driver, I cant stand him. He's like a teenage girl, always looking for drama.

Leclerc already questioning Ferrari happened quick. Had a bit of petulance to him for the race, but can't really blame him. Ferrari are a mess. For their resources, they are awful.

Race was alright. Not great, not bad. I think hearing them say the cars are the size of an SUV now made me dislike it more. Never put it in that context before. It's like watching nascars then. Big, bulky cars rather than sleek, nimble like an f1 car should be. I mean, I knkw they're nimble and whatnot, but that's just too big for an f1 car.

[Akrapovic]

Originally Posted by RWill2073

So nobody else caught Lewis post race in interview saying "I was never pitting"? After all the whining about wanting to pit, needing tires, etc, he says that post race. It perfectly encapsulates why, although an incredible driver, I cant stand him. He's like a teenage girl, always looking for drama.

He meant he wasn't pitting against team orders. He was asked if he would just pit anyway and said he'd never do that.

[broadrun96]

Originally Posted by RWill2073

So nobody else caught Lewis post race in interview saying "I was never pitting"? After all the whining about wanting to pit, needing tires, etc, he says that post race. It perfectly encapsulates why, although an incredible driver, I cant stand him. He's like a teenage girl, always looking for drama.

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

He meant he wasn't pitting against team orders. He was asked if he would just pit anyway and said he'd never do that.

Yeah, I took that to mean he wasn't going to over-rue the team and show up. Plus tires probably wouldn't be ready as the team had committed to the Mediums. Think Lewis was more angry about why and what was their brilliant plan to make these tires last when he couldn't drive as he felt he needed to stay in front

[Adam43]

Out of context that quote could be seen as much more dramatic.

[S griffin]

I think it was a case of staying out and defend, as there’s no use giving up track position in Monaco, especially when things were that tight. Anyway it gave us a close race as a result