Lites / LMP3

[joeb]

Originally Posted by TzeiTzei

The new LMPC?

I do wonder what the performance of the Chevy engined Ginetta will be. I also found it to be curious that the pictures in the press release show, what I assume is the G57, and it has headlights. Do the VdeV races require headlights? Because I thought adding headlights seemed strange for a track day car.

[FormulaFox]

Originally Posted by Mike E

Not sure where this G57 might run...

VdeV, Supercar Challenge, track days....

Heck, if Ginetta can expand their production capabilities sufficiently, maybe they can make another one-make series for it.

[GT-Eins]

Originally Posted by TheMightyM

So does the ACO now name an additional LMP3 constructor to replace Ginetta?

They should not react too fast...

Here is the first comparisation of Ginetta vs. Ligier, regarding the proposed superiority of the latter...





These data tell a story..
More to emerge tomorrow with the VdeV-Final in Estoril...

[pablocomics]

The Ligier P3 was fast at Sepang, the Addes not that much

[FormulaFox]

Normally I wouldn't pass this along since it comes from a source so unreliable that I'm convinced he just pulls things out of his @$$, but it's too interesting a notion to not talk about.

"Rumor" is that Oreca has been lobbying the IMSA LMPC teams to adopt their idea for new LMPC: A version of their stillborn CN design altered to run the same Chevy V8 the current PC cars run.

Oreca's CN design is one of only two closed-top CN cars ever devised(the other being the Ligier JS55), but it came as the CN boom began to taper off so nobody was interested, and to my knowledge Oreca never even built a test mule. But the CFD was done, and the data could almost certainly be dusted off to be adapted in such a manner.

It's an interesting proposal if one wants to keep PC a spec class, but I'd still rather see IMSA straight adopt LMP3. Although, it's certainly an interesting looking design;


What do you all think?

[Rcz]

Lmp3 with Chevy V8 engines is better. There is even some Chevy V8s P3s I've heard are already out there.

They exist as a track day cars for some wealthy owners.

[silente]

CN2 Tyres are 13" with F3 dimensions. This project would at least need an upgrade to go to 18" tires (otherwise you would have tons of problems, above all if the weight is anyway close to the one of an LMP3, see brakes).

As a consequence of a Chevy engine being adopted, i also would say the wheelbase would probably need to be much longer. At the end you go back to an LMP3-like car.

[silente]

http://italiaracing.net/newsint.aspx?id=56497&cat=27

This article mentioning the Ligier running in Imola 1.39.5.

Imola pole for Ginetta (at the beginning of the development) was something in the region of 1.42.4xx.

I am not surprised about this laptimes. Simulation i have done with Ginetta data suggest that the same could be done. Probably has not been possible at the time LMP3 first went to Imola in 2015 because of "youth" problems.

[FormulaFox]

Originally Posted by Rcz

Lmp3 with Chevy V8 engines is better. There is even some Chevy V8s P3s I've heard are already out there.

They exist as a track day cars for some wealthy owners.

Originally Posted by silente

CN2 Tyres are 13" with F3 dimensions. This project would at least need an upgrade to go to 18" tires (otherwise you would have tons of problems, above all if the weight is anyway close to the one of an LMP3, see brakes).

As a consequence of a Chevy engine being adopted, i also would say the wheelbase would probably need to be much longer. At the end you go back to an LMP3-like car.

Both of you hit on the same issue rather effectively. What would be the point of this idea when so many changes are needed? Well, the answer lies on the reasons why such a rumor would even come into existence.

The reason for this rumor, I'm pretty sure, stems from the PC teams' complete rejection of LMP3. The PC teams don't even want the chassis, and Oreca would want to keep their business if they could. They have a design that has never hit the track - it exists only in CFD. Oreca can easily adapt the design at the stage it's in, if they were to feel it was worth it.

So the question is, would it BE worth pursuing if the PC teams' couldn't be swayed? I'm not IMSA or Oreca so I can't say with any certainty.

But I doubt it could be any worse than throwing together a clean-sheet design.

In the end, we come back to that question: "If not LMP3, then what?" And the above is certainly an interesting potential answer to it.

[FormulaFox]

Originally Posted by silente

http://italiaracing.net/newsint.aspx?id=56497&cat=27

This article mentioning the Ligier running in Imola 1.39.5.

Imola pole for Ginetta (at the beginning of the development) was something in the region of 1.42.4xx.

I am not surprised about this laptimes. Simulation i have done with Ginetta data suggest that the same could be done. Probably has not been possible at the time LMP3 first went to Imola in 2015 because of "youth" problems.

VdeV's GT-Tourisme series allows LMP3 cars. Two Ligiers and two Ginettas ran at the season finisher in Estoril, giving us some good lap time info in qualifying and practice.

A Ligier took the pole with a time of 1:39.069, alongside the fastest Ginetta at 1:39.070. Talk about an even level!

The second Ligier qualified third at 1:39.144. The second Ginetta qualified fifth at 1:40.592. (4th was a Ferrari 458 GT2 with 1:40.451)

Those pole times weren't the fastest laps, either. The fastest of the four was not the pole winner, but the second-place Ginetta with a 1:37.663 in the first practice, followed by the eventual polesitting Ligier's 1:38.795 in practice 2.

Qualifying results(also listing practice times) can be seen here: http://www.vdev.fr/images/SAISON2015...icatifs_GT.pdf

[silente]

Originally Posted by FormulaFox

Both of you hit on the same issue rather effectively. What would be the point of this idea when so many changes are needed? Well, the answer lies on the reasons why such a rumor would even come into existence.

The reason for this rumor, I'm pretty sure, stems from the PC teams' complete rejection of LMP3. The PC teams don't even want the chassis, and Oreca would want to keep their business if they could. They have a design that has never hit the track - it exists only in CFD. Oreca can easily adapt the design at the stage it's in, if they were to feel it was worth it.

So the question is, would it BE worth pursuing if the PC teams' couldn't be swayed? I'm not IMSA or Oreca so I can't say with any certainty.

But I doubt it could be any worse than throwing together a clean-sheet design.

In the end, we come back to that question: "If not LMP3, then what?" And the above is certainly an interesting potential answer to it.

not my business really, but why not LMP3 simply with a bit more power? would be probably the most effective solution, in my opinion.

[silente]

Originally Posted by FormulaFox

VdeV's GT-Tourisme series allows LMP3 cars. Two Ligiers and two Ginettas ran at the season finisher in Estoril, giving us some good lap time info in qualifying and practice.

A Ligier took the pole with a time of 1:39.069, alongside the fastest Ginetta at 1:39.070. Talk about an even level!

The second Ligier qualified third at 1:39.144. The second Ginetta qualified fifth at 1:40.592. (4th was a Ferrari 458 GT2 with 1:40.451)

Those pole times weren't the fastest laps, either. The fastest of the four was not the pole winner, but the second-place Ginetta with a 1:37.663 in the first practice, followed by the eventual polesitting Ligier's 1:38.795 in practice 2.

Qualifying results(also listing practice times) can be seen here: http://www.vdev.fr/images/SAISON2015...icatifs_GT.pdf

The point with VdeV was the non "top level" crew driving both cars.

Although private testing cannot be controlled and you can do whatever you want, potentially, this one is the first shot where a potentially better driver (don't know how good is Mondini, though) is driving a Ligier, with a bit of optimization work behind.

[Rcz]

http://autosport.com/news/report.php/id/121649

Ginetta says the Chevy engine can produce around 570HP opposed to the current P3 engine that produces 420HP.

Might just do the trick of getting them faster then GT cars

[TzeiTzei]

Originally Posted by Rcz

http://autosport.com/news/report.php/id/121649

Ginetta says the Chevy engine can produce around 570HP opposed to the current P3 engine that produces 420HP.

Might just do the trick of getting them faster then GT cars

Seems like a no-brainer to me.

[Coach Ep]

This might be the exact reason for the 'Oreca CN+ rumor': looks very much like Ginetta is aiming to become the new PC supplier in the US. Not hard to see why Oreca won't like it - at all!

Not that it makes any difference but Ginetta has my blessing!

[FormulaFox]

Originally Posted by silente

not my business really, but why not LMP3 simply with a bit more power? would be probably the most effective solution, in my opinion.

The problem is that the PC teams don't want P3 AT ALL. They're pretty much universally opposed to it, so IMSA finds itself in a position where the literal BEST OPTION will likely drive away most, if not all, of the existing teams. With no guarantee of anyone being willing to step in to replace them, IMSA can't just force them to change without good cause.

IMSA's struggling for solutions. They either need to sell the PC teams on P3, or find an alternative plan they're willing to roll with. A plan that maintains the current engines is a wise start, but the teams are so opposed to the P3 cars that they've likely already nixed the idea of dropping the current engines in them.

[Rcz]

Well if I was in charge, this is what I do:

1 Allow Chevy based P3s into the PC class
2 Add 20kg to FLM09
3 Grandfather all current teams that have FLM09, but no new teams can race them from now on.
4 Make both cars use the same spec wing
5 BoP accordingly.

With a similar engine and weight, it should be easier to intermingled the FLM09 with the newer P3s cars. Dispite the size and cockpit rules.

[wdave0]

Originally Posted by FormulaFox

The problem is that the PC teams don't want P3 AT ALL. They're pretty much universally opposed to it, so IMSA finds itself in a position where the literal BEST OPTION will likely drive away most, if not all, of the existing teams. With no guarantee of anyone being willing to step in to replace them, IMSA can't just force them to change without good cause.

IMSA's struggling for solutions. They either need to sell the PC teams on P3, or find an alternative plan they're willing to roll with. A plan that maintains the current engines is a wise start, but the teams are so opposed to the P3 cars that they've likely already nixed the idea of dropping the current engines in them.

I think the real issue is that the PC teams don't want ANY other chassis, thy don't want to spend the money to change anything.

[joeb]

Originally Posted by wdave0

I think the real issue is that the PC teams don't want ANY other chassis, thy don't want to spend the money to change anything.

With Rocketsports leaving the class, how many cars will we realistically see for the season in 2016, six? Then in 2017 it looks as if the Guasch team will be moving up to P2, so does that leave BAR1, JDCMiller, Performance Tech and maybe Core and Starworks? So 3 to 6 cars? When class numbers dwindle the organizers will have to try and attract more entrants. Sometimes an infusion of new machinery is the way to do that even if the 3 remaining teams protest.

I didn't mind seeing 2 GT1 Corvettes race each other around for a couple of years, but seeing 3 PC cars race each other doesn't seem as attractive.

[Deleted]

GT1 Corvettes were amazing pieces of tech, the LMPCs are... well...

And unlike in PC, it's not like anyone prevented other models from coming in to challenge Corvette in 07-08 (in fact couple of Astons and Maserati did, ocassionally), it just wasn't working out anymore outside Europe

[joeb]

The Ave Riley P3 is still being worked on, but progress is being made:

http://www.racer.com/wec-le-mans/eur...-make-progress

[FormulaFox]

Originally Posted by wdave0

I think the real issue is that the PC teams don't want ANY other chassis, thy don't want to spend the money to change anything.

That's not true, actually. Several PC owners have been backing a "budget P2" idea - using a large number of spec parts to make a car that would cost PC prices to acquire and run and can be updated to P2/DPI spec when a team wanted to move up.

Yes, it's a garbage idea; People who understand the P2 chassis have pointed out there is no way to get a P2-based chassis down to the cost level they're talking about. IIRC, even Michael Shank has weighed in on how idiotic an idea it is.

[FormulaFox]

NASA 25 Hours of Thunderhill features two Ginetta LMP3s, as well as three of the new Elan NP01s: https://www.nasaproracing.com/events/2133/entry_list

Wish there was streaming broadcast of this race...

[hondafan37]

Originally Posted by FormulaFox

NASA 25 Hours of Thunderhill features two Ginetta LMP3s, as well as three of the new Elan NP01s: https://www.nasaproracing.com/events/2133/entry_list

Wish there was streaming broadcast of this race...

more information of 25 hours of Thunderhill
http://www.endurance-info.com/fr/25-...ures-engagees/

[joeb]

I missed this earlier, but saw a link on Mariantic that Riley has sold some chassis to European teams (4 I think) and the first team will be announced next week. They are also thinking of running a couple cars in ElMS themselves.

Sounds like they were delayed to try and improve the aero and find cheaper suppliers to meet the cost cap.