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Old 22 Feb 2020, 12:02 (Ref:3959202)   #176
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Originally Posted by Casper View Post
Yep, about 50 years ago, when did you work it out?
Sorry, was just checking as your long post suggests that camber causes problems and adjusting toe will remove those problems, when adjusting toe in a straight line won’t make any appreciable difference to camber.
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Old 22 Feb 2020, 12:53 (Ref:3959209)   #177
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I think the point is that toe is continually changing with the rotation of the steering wheel and Ackerman system. Mercedes have introduced a further change to the toe through for/aft movement of the steering wheel.
Yes. There are seperate rules for suspension (broadly up and down) and steering (left and right). So while toe can be thought of a suspension setting. It's just a measure for a specific orientation of the wheels (neutral steering position). Toe values changes as the driver moves the wheel. Dynamic toe is related to steering rules not suspension rules.

In short the system is legal. If people are upset about the fore/aft steering wheel movement, a more complex (likely heavy) setup could be created that would create the desired non-linear steering action just via classic steering wheel rotation. Such as zero toe when wheels steering straight and more toe when turning. But using two axis gives the driver more control on when this happens, plus the system is probably less complex.

As many others have said this likely has positive impact on tire wear and straight line speed (probably mostly aero) and maybe even improved breaking performance. How much improvement is debatable.

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Old 22 Feb 2020, 23:12 (Ref:3959275)   #178
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I agree that it appears completely legal.Just hanging on to a hope.
If you look at testing times the 2 Mercedes cars will lap the field in every race this year.The implications of that for the sport don’t bear thinking about.
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Old 22 Feb 2020, 23:46 (Ref:3959282)   #179
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Sorry, was just checking (A) as your long post suggests that camber causes problems and adjusting toe will remove those problems, (B) when adjusting toe in a straight line won’t make any appreciable difference to camber.
(A) Casper doesn't suggest that at all. Note the two separate paragraphs.

(B) 'Appreciable (or not) difference to camber is debatable; 'depends on how much caster there is. More importantly, going neutral from toe out will even the temp. across the tires down straights as the inside portion of the tires will not be "dragging" as in toe out....

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Old 23 Feb 2020, 01:49 (Ref:3959301)   #180
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Question to which I do not know the answer.Are teams allowed to change camber/toe-in once the car enters Parc ferme?If not it shouldn’t make any difference whether the change is done by the driver or the mechanics.
I know they fill in a data sheet with all suspension and steering settings on the car. Ackermann causes toe change as the wheels move away from straight ahead so I presume that any declaration on the toe setting is done at a zero point for this new system which would be where the steering wheel is on the straight. It would be a fair presumption that after the sheet is filled in then then those settings would have to be used without change but in truth I can't see how that can happen. Maybe they are allowed to change if they supply the new settings?? The declaration is most probably for Pirelli to see if the settings are suitable to use with their tyres more than anything else because there are declared limits on camber at least and most probably toe settings but toe becomes self limiting so maybe not.
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Old 23 Feb 2020, 01:51 (Ref:3959303)   #181
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The Williams colour scheme reminds me a lot of the 1997 Arrows.
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Old 24 Feb 2020, 14:03 (Ref:3959560)   #182
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I agree that it appears completely legal.Just hanging on to a hope.
If you look at testing times the 2 Mercedes cars will lap the field in every race this year.The implications of that for the sport don’t bear thinking about.
If that happens it may hasten the exit for manufacturers in F1. Ferrari will probably go into an even earlier than usual internal meltdown over who's fault is is they are not winning the championship. Honda are already debating the future with Red Bull citing the huge changes and costs in the industry as they need to roll out EV road cars even quicker as other petrol/diesel and hybrids face a ban by 2040 (2035 in the UK or maybe 2032).

I reckon the FE shareholders are sitting in the multi-million pound seats as Agag very cleverly negotiated with the FIA the exclusive rights to run an EV single seater world championship, so Liberty will need to buy them out to make F1 - FE1...or F1e

Pointless F1 holding out any hope of manufacturers being in F1 in 10 years if they are not electric, car makers will have no need to promote any petrol engine or hybrid tech - it will be commercially obselete.
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Old 24 Feb 2020, 19:05 (Ref:3959604)   #183
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If that happens it may hasten the exit for manufacturers in F1. Ferrari will probably go into an even earlier than usual internal meltdown over who's fault is is they are not winning the championship. Honda are already debating the future with Red Bull citing the huge changes and costs in the industry as they need to roll out EV road cars even quicker as other petrol/diesel and hybrids face a ban by 2040 (2035 in the UK or maybe 2032).

I reckon the FE shareholders are sitting in the multi-million pound seats as Agag very cleverly negotiated with the FIA the exclusive rights to run an EV single seater world championship, so Liberty will need to buy them out to make F1 - FE1...or F1e

Pointless F1 holding out any hope of manufacturers being in F1 in 10 years if they are not electric, car makers will have no need to promote any petrol engine or hybrid tech - it will be commercially obselete.
With the British Govenment saying that new ICE cars will be banned from sale by 2035 Motorsport seems to be nearer the exit than the entrance.....
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Old 24 Feb 2020, 21:29 (Ref:3959631)   #184
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I reckon the FE shareholders are sitting in the multi-million pound seats as Agag very cleverly negotiated with the FIA the exclusive rights to run an EV single seater world championship, so Liberty will need to buy them out to make F1 - FE1...or F1e
Err, Liberty own FE.
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Old 24 Feb 2020, 23:19 (Ref:3959668)   #185
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Err, Liberty own FE.
From what I've gathered from reading this article by Forbes, the management company for Formula E is Formula E Operations Limited, based in London and the parent company is Formula E Holdings, based in Hong Kong. The largest shareholder is Liberty Global with 23.9%.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/csylt/2...t-140-million/
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Old 25 Feb 2020, 00:24 (Ref:3959676)   #186
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With the British Govenment saying that new ICE cars will be banned from sale by 2035 Motorsport seems to be nearer the exit than the entrance.....
I don't see that motor sport has to have an IC engine, why can't it convert to electric. Imagine if you will the reaction if electric cars had been successful when they were first introduced back in the very beginning, motor sport was all electric and someone suggested that IC engines would be better. I bet that there would be all sorts of negative reaction mainly because of the noise factor.

An electric car in club racing would be ideal for me, no maintenance issues at the track that IC cars present and far cheaper to run in all aspects. It would not be maintenance free but it would require a lot less.
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Old 25 Feb 2020, 00:38 (Ref:3959677)   #187
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Sorry, was just checking as your long post suggests that camber causes problems and adjusting toe will remove those problems, when adjusting toe in a straight line won’t make any appreciable difference to camber.
I have been playing around with and designing suspension and steering stuff both in karts and cars for a very long time and readily admit I know nothing compared to anyone in professional motor sport. I made several break throughs in karts and most now reflect those changes, it was just lucky that we saw them first.

I must add one thing, I don't agree that it is a suspension change, it is a steering geometry change and a lot of people should get their heads around that.
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Old 25 Feb 2020, 08:28 (Ref:3959709)   #188
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I don't see that motor sport has to have an IC engine, why can't it convert to electric. Imagine if you will the reaction if electric cars had been successful when they were first introduced back in the very beginning, motor sport was all electric and someone suggested that IC engines would be better. I bet that there would be all sorts of negative reaction mainly because of the noise factor.

An electric car in club racing would be ideal for me, no maintenance issues at the track that IC cars present and far cheaper to run in all aspects. It would not be maintenance free but it would require a lot less.
Ever tried plugging in at Thruxton for one!!
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Old 25 Feb 2020, 11:45 (Ref:3959738)   #189
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No, but it sounds like about the same at Eastern Creek.
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Old 25 Feb 2020, 13:02 (Ref:3959748)   #190
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For those with technical know, roughly how much lap time improvement could be achieved by DAS? I'm assuming the main benefit is toward the end of straights, and the longer the straight the more the improvement. Few mph? 10mph? I'm sure every advantage is worth it, just wondering about the size of the advantage.

Another thing I'm thinking about that others have mentioned, is the wear component, and possibly fuel. (Though I imagine the fuel you'd save weighs so little I'm not sure that's a factor really worth considering). I saw a number of times last year where Hamilton just ran his tires longer than rivals, giving a wider strategy call window. If you're saving on wear, that forces your competitors to be even more spot on with their calls to hope to compete or catch you out.
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Old 25 Feb 2020, 15:59 (Ref:3959783)   #191
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For those with technical know, roughly how much lap time improvement could be achieved by DAS? I'm assuming the main benefit is toward the end of straights, and the longer the straight the more the improvement. Few mph? 10mph? I'm sure every advantage is worth it, just wondering about the size of the advantage..

I would imagine this is exactly the same question the other teams are pondering and evaluating, some of them may even try their luck at a protest in Australia - who knows.
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Old 25 Feb 2020, 16:18 (Ref:3959790)   #192
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I would imagine this is exactly the same question the other teams are pondering and evaluating, some of them may even try their luck at a protest in Australia - who knows.
Agree that everyone is crunching numbers. It's probably a bunch of things that add up over race length.

While I think it's legal to the rules, it will be interesting to see if the other teams challenge it at the first race.

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Old 25 Feb 2020, 18:09 (Ref:3959834)   #193
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Having watched the video of the wheels on the Mercedes moving I have to wonder whether the benefit of the DAS system is at least partly aerodynamic rather than solely for better tyre use.For a road car the amount of toe is pretty trivial maybe plus or minus 4mm and I am quite sure the Mercedes was using several times this amount of movement.Which leads to my suspicion that it might be a way of creating some outwash along the sides of the car and when the corner is reached the optimum cornering setting is selected.Any comments?
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Old 25 Feb 2020, 19:19 (Ref:3959848)   #194
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Having watched the video of the wheels on the Mercedes moving I have to wonder whether the benefit of the DAS system is at least partly aerodynamic rather than solely for better tyre use.For a road car the amount of toe is pretty trivial maybe plus or minus 4mm and I am quite sure the Mercedes was using several times this amount of movement.Which leads to my suspicion that it might be a way of creating some outwash along the sides of the car and when the corner is reached the optimum cornering setting is selected.Any comments?
Where the benefits exists is the big question. As I mention above, I think it's in multiple areas.

1. Aero. Probably a combo of drag reduction and consistent shaping of flow while on the straight. I have no idea what typical F1 toe values are, but I assume they can be circuit specific. So that means that straight-line performance would also vary given the potential for variable toe (from track to track). That may make it harder to define a single optimal straight-line aero flow configuration because toe would be variable. But if you are able to say that you can now expect zero toe on the straight, then you might be able to have less compromise on the aero somewhere. So you can optimize the overall aero package with that assumption of zero front toe on all tracks???

2. Impact of zero slip angle on mechanical drag/front tire rolling resistance? No idea how large this is. Probably quite small compared to aero drag?

3. Tire wear/temp optimization. This is another slip angle topic. I assume this gives them more control over wear and heat generated by a non-zero toe. While the system broadly shows it either pulled in or out, is there the potential for intermediate settings? That they could dial in variable amounts of toe on the straights to adjust front tire temps? I don't know how much toe impacts tire temps/wear on these cars.

I suspect the impact is just not known yet. I think I read somewhere that Bottas did a great laptime without using the system. So that may indicate its not a huge factor to lap time, but maybe more about tire management? But trying to read too much into testing lap times is dangerous as you just never know things like fuel loads, engine settings, etc. Teams may be showing their hands or sandbagging.

In the end, it's a ton of speculation. And I have also been watching elsewhere (in more technical forums) and I think the experts are also speculating as to performance impacts. I think nobody knows except for Mercedes. And even then, they had to run it during testing to gather data to measure it's impact.

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Old 25 Feb 2020, 23:47 (Ref:3959915)   #195
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Could also lift the front of the car and use the change of attitude to shed aero load off the wings and chassis when traveling down the straight - huge gain, basically what the Williams active suspension did.
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Old 26 Feb 2020, 00:51 (Ref:3959919)   #196
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Could also lift the front of the car and use the change of attitude to shed aero load off the wings and chassis when traveling down the straight - huge gain, basically what the Williams active suspension did.
I thought the purpose of active suspension, was to counter act the centrifugal force and keep the car level as it went through corners?
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Old 26 Feb 2020, 01:40 (Ref:3959922)   #197
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I thought the purpose of active suspension, was to counter act the centrifugal force and keep the car level as it went through corners?
BJ, the active suspension was also used to adjust the attitude of the car and shed load off the aerodynamics by changing the aero surface attack angles in order to reduce drag and increase the straight line speed. If Merc can change the attitude of the car, the straight line speed would be enhanced.
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Old 26 Feb 2020, 11:16 (Ref:3959977)   #198
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Could also lift the front of the car and use the change of attitude to shed aero load off the wings and chassis when traveling down the straight - huge gain, basically what the Williams active suspension did.
If this could be shown to be true, then I expect the system would be quickly deemed illegal via multiple rule infractions. This stops being steering and then falls into both suspension and moveable aero issues. It should be easily verifiable/detected by stewards.

So I personally doubt this is what is happening. If it is, I would be shocked as it opens the door for accusations of a blatant (says it does x, but does y) attempt at cheating and given Mercedes dominance, why do that and risk tarnishing their legacy?

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Old 26 Feb 2020, 11:23 (Ref:3959978)   #199
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I thought the purpose of active suspension, was to counter act the centrifugal force and keep the car level as it went through corners?
My impression is that it was about consistent and predictable ride height in all conditions. Running the car lower than might be normally possible for example. That doesn't preclude tricks around dynamic rake, etc., but I believe the primary thing was consistent attitude and not dynamic attitude.

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Old 26 Feb 2020, 12:32 (Ref:3959993)   #200
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My impression is that it was about consistent and predictable ride height in all conditions. Running the car lower than might be normally possible for example. That doesn't preclude tricks around dynamic rake, etc., but I believe the primary thing was consistent attitude and not dynamic attitude.

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Active suspension virtually eliminates body roll and pitch variation in many driving situations including cornering, accelerating, and braking.
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