What is Aston Martin up to?

[Mike_Wooshy]

Just as some people are tired of hearing apparently how crap the car is and they should give up and go home. Also comparing the Lotus to the Aston is pears and apples.

[The Badger]

Originally Posted by JDog

Im bored of hearing how late the project got announced....Lotus announced a GT2 project at around the same time and they had two respectable entries at Le Mans one of which finished. Percentage wise on pace they were far closer to the leading cars in GTE than the AMR effort in P1

Thats like comparing a Cessna to a Concorde ..... completely differant machines .

[AGD]

Originally Posted by Mike_Wooshy

How do you know on track testing was delayed at all ?

Who knows? But it is a possibility and a risk when starting from scratch at such a late date.

Apart from they tried this already and to fit there own engine in they had to rebuild the rear end and maybe this is what put them off because your starting with a generic Chassis, that they have have to alter significantly for there own needs.

I don't understand what you are saying. Are you saying they already tried it and it would not work or are you just speculating that? In the case of the latter, Lola are experts at these kinds of things and I'm sure they could have come up with a solution.

And how do you know its a mediocre chassis ? have you seen the detailed drawings of the chassis ? and if you have are you an engineer that can confirm this is just a mediocre chassis ? or is this just more speculation ?

People a lot smarter and connected than me have made negative comments about AMR's engine and chassis choice. Maybe they are wrong, but all we can go by is speculation. GHC even told Autosport last week that a closed car would have been advantageous, but that it is more involving to construct.

You make it sounds that the Vantage already has no hope. Obviously you wernt at Silverstone 1000 KM last year when the thing damned near won.

JMW made some major strides with the Vantage last year, but I think it is fair to say that it is not a class benchmark at the moment. Maybe it will get there, but are the money and resources there to get the job done? We can only speculate, but I think it is a fair question.

Originally Posted by Mike_Wooshy

Just as some people are tired of hearing apparently how crap the car is and they should give up and go home. Also comparing the Lotus to the Aston is pears and apples.

Nobody is saying they should give up and go home. We want to see as many competitive cars on the track as we can see. AMR rolling out the AMR-One in it's current form is just stealing grid spots from much more prepared teams. The fact that fan favorites like the Robertsons (as well as Enge in the YD Vantage) had to sit out when they had a Pro car ready to go just so AMR could run a handful of seriously slow laps has a lot of people really chapped. Whatever the problems are, I think it is clear that AMR needs to do their work in private before they hit the race track again.

[Mike_Wooshy]

Originally Posted by AGD

Who knows? But it is a possibility and a risk when starting from scratch at such a late date.



I don't understand what you are saying. Are you saying they already tried it and it would not work or are you just speculating that? In the case of the latter, Lola are experts at these kinds of things and I'm sure they could have come up with a solution.

No they did this with the AMR DBR 1/2 If you read up they had to rebuild the suspension and use a diffrent gearbox to what is offered from Lola when you buy a chassis "of the shelf". Plus other things which escape my mind. Also If I remember correctly the whole AMR DMR 1/2 /Aston Lola left a bitter taste in Lola's mouth, so I dont think going to Lola was on the cards let alone an idea from anyone within Prodrive/AMR.

People a lot smarter and connected than me have made negative comments about AMR's engine and chassis choice. Maybe they are wrong, but all we can go by is speculation. GHC even told Autosport last week that a closed car would have been advantageous, but that it is more involving to construct.

Of course a closed car would be advantageous its why Audi decided to go for it. But why do you think this means its mediocre ? or are you saying beacause it doesnt have a roof they are at a disadvantage to any team that runs a roof ? Beause the latter is understandable considering the latest carnation of the rules.

JMW made some major strides with the Vantage last year, but I think it is fair to say that it is not a class benchmark at the moment. Maybe it will get there, but are the money and resources there to get the job done? We can only speculate, but I think it is a fair question.

GTE is a very very competitive class right now and everyone is developing constantly in the class. No its not the class of the field but its very difficult to be class of the field when there is 3-4 other cars constantly developing. It is a fair question, but as I said, you made it sound like it had no chance in hell. (thats how it came across to me and ill gladly apologise if thats not how it was ment)

Nobody is saying they should give up and go home. We want to see as many competitive cars on the track as we can see. AMR rolling out the AMR-One in it's current form is just stealing grid spots from much more prepared teams. The fact that fan favorites like the Robertsons (as well as Enge in the YD Vantage) had to sit out when they had a Pro car ready to go just so AMR could run a handful of seriously slow laps has a lot of people really chapped. Whatever the problems are, I think it is clear that AMR needs to do their work in private before they hit the race track again.

When I said go home I meant in terms of the car as is, You and more over others were the ones saying Aston should either dump the chassis or the engine. Im not claiming this is the best car in class and tbh I never expected it to be. Anyone who thinks Aston were going to come in and give Audi and Peugeot a good run straight away was just overestimating the team/themselves. I concede your point about other teams. I also agree AMR need to do ALOT of work in private before they hit the track in public view again. I just disagree with the preception thats being chucked around that this is a waste of time.
Sorry if my post offended you personally, please feel free to discuss this further with me VIA a PM

[NelisB]

Originally Posted by AGD

Who knows? But it is a possibility and a risk when starting from scratch at such a late date.



I don't understand what you are saying. Are you saying they already tried it and it would not work or are you just speculating that? In the case of the latter, Lola are experts at these kinds of things and I'm sure they could have come up with a solution.



People a lot smarter and connected than me have made negative comments about AMR's engine and chassis choice. Maybe they are wrong, but all we can go by is speculation. GHC even told Autosport last week that a closed car would have been advantageous, but that it is more involving to construct.





JMW made some major strides with the Vantage last year, but I think it is fair to say that it is not a class benchmark at the moment. Maybe it will get there, but are the money and resources there to get the job done? We can only speculate, but I think it is a fair question.



Nobody is saying they should give up and go home. We want to see as many competitive cars on the track as we can see. AMR rolling out the AMR-One in it's current form is just stealing grid spots from much more prepared teams. The fact that fan favorites like the Robertsons (as well as Enge in the YD Vantage) had to sit out when they had a Pro car ready to go just so AMR could run a handful of seriously slow laps has a lot of people really chapped. Whatever the problems are, I think it is clear that AMR needs to do their work in private before they hit the race track again.

If they should be allowed to race I think it should be one car at first just so they can prove it's capable of posting normal laptimes.

[GTRMagic]

Why werent JLOC at Le Mans this year? Or were they

[NelisB]

Originally Posted by GTRMagic

Why werent JLOC at Le Mans this year? Or were they

Nope weren't at Le Mans this year.

[Victor_RO]

Originally Posted by NelisB

Nope weren't at Le Mans this year.

Or maybe they were, disguised as Aston Martin Racing.

[arakis]

Originally Posted by Mike_Wooshy

GTE is a very very competitive class right now and everyone is developing constantly in the class. No its not the class of the field but its very difficult to be class of the field when there is 3-4 other cars constantly developing. It is a fair question, but as I said, you made it sound like it had no chance in hell.

if you are still unable to win after the ACO BoP gives you 1.4mm larger restrictors, takes 50kg away and reduces the gurney by 10mm you have no chance in hell of wining ever.

[lemansfan]

http://s7.directupload.net/file/d/2556/fj99g6xx_jpg
http://s1.directupload.net/file/d/2556/ltbvklsb_jpg

Aston Pics from our Pit Visit on Tuesday

[canam]

If I were to put my money on a project right now: Pesca, Pesca, Pesca.
His heart is that of a racer and he knows how to get the job done. The car will be a good one.

DR will put half on the car and half in "his" pocket.

It is now in AMR's interest to talk about low engine power etc etc.
They need to sell "wish list" value to punters. Hignett and Hancock....beware.

AMR-One is an open car--so would make a good skip.

[höller]

Originally Posted by Mike_Wooshy

The trouble is with fourms is that half the posts are clogged up with people who have too much time on their hands, speculating and moaning. Fact is Aston Martin should be embarrsed by this, BUT it was all built late in the day, Rome wasn't built over night. Give the engineers a bit more time on the engine front and results will come.

Also fact is that the inline-6 seems to be pretty out of place in its supercharged version (if you are not using two small turbochargers). It can´t be true that the main reason for its usage is the future series equipment?? As mentioned before (I think Darren Turner stated this) the lag and throttle response is awful and this seems to be due to the engine concept which is the pits for race performance. Maybe they don´t even use the twin scroll concept as BMW does with the two different "heart-shaped" inlet chambers which would improve efficiency up to a certain level? Or do they use ALS? But - as an former ALPINA employee told me - the inline-6 will always suffer from a certain disadvantage compared to other supercharged engines. And if the open car concept ist the perfect solution for the future years appears to be dodgy... So, much work to be done.

[canam]

Originally Posted by Mike_Wooshy

The trouble is with fourms is that half the posts are clogged up with people who have too much time on their hands, speculating and moaning. Fact is Aston Martin should be embarrsed by this, BUT it was all built late in the day, Rome wasn't built over night. Give the engineers a bit more time on the engine front and results will come.

You try telling that to those that put in big money. Embarrassment is not the word. It could be job loss for some. Additionally, this failure to deliver will have a collateral impact on other teams (who truly deliver) seeking funding/sponsorship. It simply reinforces many sponsors negative view of the sport.

[chernaudi]

Quite a few people have suggested that AMR just stick the inline 6 into a Lola chassis. In theory that's a good idea, but there are a couple of problems:

1: Can the AM 6 fit in the Lola chassis as is? I don't know the particulars of such a scinerio, not being there at LM and not seeing a new Lola coupe tub or the AMR's power unit (engine/gearbox) in person, but I have to question how effective such a change would be, as at least the AMR-One was designed around it's engine.

And the big one, point #2, is: It seems that the chassis/aero, though a bit outdated, isn't the major issue. Drivers have said that the car itself is sound from a chassis/aero standpoint in so far as it has decent to good levels of grip and handling. It still might not be quite as good as the other, more developed gasoline engined cars yet, but it's not that far off it seems.

The engine is what's doomed this car with its lack of power and reliability. That being said, I don't think that sticking this engine in someone else's car is going to fix anything.

[FordCosworthPanoz]

Nick Daman deserves a medal, true honesty on Midweek Motorsport.

[Audi Racer]

Audi says the Aston martin engine design is technically flawed and illogical. They can;t believe that ASton Martin went with that design.

The issue is that being a inline six the crankshaft is to long to even be reliable

[Audi Racer]

Audi says the Aston martin engine design is technically flawed and illogical. They can;t believe that ASton Martin went with that design.

[AGD]

Originally Posted by FordCosworthPanoz

Nick Daman deserves a medal, true honesty on Midweek Motorsport.

I'll listen to the recording of MWM later this week, but what did he say?

Originally Posted by Audi Racer

Audi says the Aston martin engine design is technically flawed and illogical. They can;t believe that ASton Martin went with that design.

The issue is that being a inline six the crankshaft is to long to even be reliable

Not Audi so much as Audi's engine guy Ulrich Baretzky. He's certainly not new to w hat AMR is trying to do and he certainly isn't a keyboard Internet jockey either.

[GTRMagic]

Simple packaging logic would tell you that a straight 6 engine plus turbo installation will be longer than a V6 version of the same powerplant. It means there shall be some significant compromise with where the engine sits in the chassis, and the gearbox mounting location.. and how far it sticks out the back. Plus cooling and air flow and all the other packaging dramas.

This stuff is simple to understand.

If the AM engine had produced class leading power and performance, the same question would be asked about why a straight six is better than a V6...

In road cars, a straight six is said to be better balanced than a V6, something to do with the firing order, and timing of stresses on the crankshaft.. does the same work for race cars, which have to endure much higher revs for longer?

[FordCosworthPanoz]

Originally Posted by AGD

I'll listen to the recording of MWM later this week, but what did he say?



Not Audi so much as Audi's engine guy Ulrich Baretzky. He's certainly not new to w hat AMR is trying to do and he certainly isn't a keyboard Internet jockey either.

While the other commentators were defending AMR (for time, lack of funds, ect), Nick pretty much said the car was a complete embarrassment, and the team made a lot of stupid mistakes. He also said something Ive wanted to say for a while which is “If He were a manufacturer who paid Prodrive money to build and develop and LMP car and it ended up like the AMR One, he would want his money back”. Also, made some interesting comments about Prodrive itself as well which are worth a listen.

[AGD]

Originally Posted by FordCosworthPanoz

While the other commentators were defending AMR (for time, lack of funds, ect), Nick pretty much said the car was a complete embarrassment, and the team made a lot of stupid mistakes. He also said something Ive wanted to say for a while which is “If He were a manufacturer who paid Prodrive money to build and develop and LMP car and it ended up like the AMR One, he would want his money back”. Also, made some interesting comments about Prodrive itself as well which are worth a listen.

Thanks, I will have to check it out if/when it gets archived on their website.

[Racenut]

Originally Posted by GTRMagic

In road cars, a straight six is said to be better balanced than a V6, something to do with the firing order, and timing of stresses on the crankshaft.. does the same work for race cars, which have to endure much higher revs for longer?

In road cars the straight 6 is 'smoother' for the driver... one of the problems in a race engine would be crank flex or twist. The crank 'twist' along its length from front to rear whick causes major problems with the timing. You also have plumbing issues on the induction side which 'can' cause issues which is why successful blown engines (ie BMW) have multiple turbos.

[Nordic]

Originally Posted by FordCosworthPanoz

While the other commentators were defending AMR (for time, lack of funds, ect), Nick pretty much said the car was a complete embarrassment, and the team made a lot of stupid mistakes. He also said something Ive wanted to say for a while which is “If He were a manufacturer who paid Prodrive money to build and develop and LMP car and it ended up like the AMR One, he would want his money back”. Also, made some interesting comments about Prodrive itself as well which are worth a listen.

All correct and the constant defending of the Prodrive shambles by RLM which was on a par with the JOLC and rocketsport efforts was irksome, RLM did not find it so hard to have a negative view on on those two efforts.

Maybe Astons hospitably was just better?

I don't know who are the money men behind the project, but I suspect their pockets are not as bulging as Dave Richards may have suspected.

[gwyllion]

Originally Posted by Audi Racer

Audi says the Aston martin engine design is technically flawed and illogical. They can't believe that ASton Martin went with that design.

On RLM David Richards suggested that those comments about the straight 6 engine configuration are completely political. Aston Martin believes that the diesel-petrol equivalance is wrong at the moment. Therefor Audi and Peugeot argue that the AMR-One engine is not an optimum petrol engine and hence that no performance balance changes are needed.

You can listen the interview on http://audio.rpix.org.uk/lm24/2011/2011_lm24_r7.mp3

[Audi Racer]

Originally Posted by gwyllion

On RLM David Richards suggested that those comments about the straight 6 engine configuration are completely political. Aston Martin believes that the diesel-petrol equivalance is wrong at the moment. Therefor Audi and Peugeot argue that the AMR-One engine is not an optimum petrol engine and hence that no performance balance changes are needed.

You can listen the interview on http://audio.rpix.org.uk/lm24/2011/2011_lm24_r7.mp3

David richards can say whataver he wants but right now the facts don't lie. His inline six isn't even making 500hp.