What is Aston Martin up to?

[Félix]

From what I read, 2013 F1 turbos won't have wastegates and will instead regulate turbo pressure electronically. Is it possible with ACO rules? And how does it work exactly without a wastegate?

[knighty]

Originally Posted by gwyllion

BTW the 2011 rules allow ceramic bearings, which is also new.
Can the Garret VGT technology deal the higher exhaust temperature of a petrol engine?

Hi Gwyllon, Yes, Porsche have released a VGT system in conjunction with Borg-Warner, but its F-expensive due to very exotic materials in the VGT mechanism guide vanes, but if porsche can do it, so can Aston Martin!!!

Dont get too excited about ceramic bearings, they are nothing special and INA/FAG still offer many exotic all steel turbo bearing options that will work just as well.

felix - regarding waste gates, from where I'm sitting thats really not the case, but things may change, in all honesty I'm not a wastegate expert, but I know people who are and the implications are that waste gates are here to stay, they are just too well proven and accepted for a silly regulation to bin them.......check out this mob (DSPS) for waste gates and fresh air valves (for turbo anti-lag (reverse EGR)) for the new 1600CC turbo WRC regs:

http://www.dsps.eu/index.html

http://www.dsps.eu/2011_wastegate.html

http://www.dsps.eu/freshair_valve.html

The fresh air valve is basically an evolution of the first system pioneered on the 2001/2002 Hyundai WRC engine, designed by clever folk at Mountune ;-)

[chernaudi]

The reason why the Audi and Aston V6s are at least 90 degree is because the CG on a 60 deg engine is higher up--that was a problem with the production based V12 in the old Lola Astons--heavier than the Audi and Pug V12 diesels and a higher CG.

Also, if a 60 deg block is used, where's the room for the turbos of they're housed in the V? At least 90 degrees is what we're looking at--60 degrees is optimal for a V12, but Audi ran a 90 on their V12 because of CG and what not.

I think that 90 or 120 is what were looking at here for packaging and weight/CG.

[Victor_RO]

Originally Posted by chernaudi

Also, if a 60 deg block is used, where's the room for the turbos of they're housed in the V? At least 90 degrees is what we're looking at--60 degrees is optimal for a V12, but Audi ran a 90 on their V12 because of CG and what not.

Who says that Aston Martin are going to go for a turbo installed inside the V? Let's not get ahead of ourselves with assumptions again.

[gwyllion]

Originally Posted by knighty

Hi Gwyllon, Yes, Porsche have released a VGT system in conjunction with Borg-Warner, but its F-expensive due to very exotic materials in the VGT mechanism guide vanes, but if porsche can do it, so can Aston Martin!!!

The rules don't allow the use of ceramic material as guide vanes.

5.2.2 - Charging devices incorporating ceramic components apart from the bearings, variable diameter inlets and adjustable internal vanes are forbidden. Adjustable internal vanes fixed on the turbine housing are permitted for LMP1.

That might rule out VGT for petrol engines.

[gwyllion]

Originally Posted by Victor_RO

Who says that Aston Martin are going to go for a turbo installed inside the V? Let's not get ahead of ourselves with assumptions again.

Indeed. Don't forget that the Aston Martin will be a spyder. So moving the turbo(s) to the middle of the engine makes less sense.

[Tim the Grey]

Gwyllion? That says they ARE allowed? Ceramic is allowed for those specific bits n pieces.

If twin turbo, AMs job is easy. If a single, then stick it in the vee, as that makes most sense. Even drop it just behind, as CART/DFX Cosworth installation from years ago?

[gwyllion]

Originally Posted by Tim the Grey

Gwyllion? That says they ARE allowed? Ceramic is allowed for those specific bits n pieces.

The position of the comma is critical In the past the rules used to say

5.2.2 - Charging devices incorporating ceramic components, variable diameter inlets and adjustable internal vanes are forbidden. Adjustable internal vanes fixed on the turbine housing are permitted.

For 2011 they added the exception that ceramic bearings may be used.

[Tim the Grey]

Unfortunately, in English, that sentence says all items IN the sentence ARE allowed... Anything else, is not.

I have no doubt the original French version states that, but the English wording does not. Unless that is what they actually want it to say?

VGT and moving blades are specifically allowed in LMP1 anyway, so I don't see any issue at all, here?

Please don't think I'm picking a fight, BTW, I'm not...

[automac24]

more hmm... that's absolutely confusing:

[automac24]

thanks for help

[knighty]

Originally Posted by Tim the Grey

Unfortunately, in English, that sentence says all items IN the sentence ARE allowed... Anything else, is not.

I have no doubt the original French version states that, but the English wording does not. Unless that is what they actually want it to say?

VGT and moving blades are specifically allowed in LMP1 anyway, so I don't see any issue at all, here?

Please don't think I'm picking a fight, BTW, I'm not...

Tim - your correct VGT is allowed in LMP1, but the guide vanes cannot be ceramic, lets leave it there, as this subject is even boring me!!!!........lets wait and see whats what when the car is released........how about a good old bit of car colour and driver prediction???.......:-).......to throw a cat among the pigeons, I reckon AMR will end up building a coupe, for the same reasons that Audi were forced down the coupe route, pit-stop time reduction.........any thoughts anyone???.........yes I know the AMR image released last year was an open car.

[Bentley03]

Originally Posted by knighty

.......to throw a cat among the pigeons, I reckon AMR will end up building a coupe, for the same reasons that Audi were forced down the coupe route, pit-stop time reduction.........any thoughts anyone???.........yes I know the AMR image released last year was an open car.

Interesting, I've been having the same thoughts. If their aim is for the overall at Le Mans, I'd be surprised if AMR drew different conclusions from their design studies than Audi and Peugeot. Then again, I thought the pictures released last year (of the barchetta) were unexciting in the extreme. Perhaps I'm just hoping for a coupe to offset my initial disappointment.

[Félix]

Originally Posted by knighty

to throw a cat among the pigeons, I reckon AMR will end up building a coupe, for the same reasons that Audi were forced down the coupe route, pit-stop time reduction.........any thoughts anyone???.........yes I know the AMR image released last year was an open car.

With the equalization promises that were made to AMR, I would not be surprised if they complained about spyders being at a disadvantage if that looks like it's the case after this year's attempt.

Besides, I like open cars, they're what's been up front through most of the last 10 years and that's when I've been watching the sport. Modern P1s never look quite right (to me at least); the proportions and squary bits are just wrong compared to something like the GT-One, CLR or even the Epsilon-Euskadi.

[Tim the Grey]

Sorry Mr Knighty sir... /end Pedant

Coupe AMR? I have seen a render somewhere, bet on Endurance Crea, of that original side view, with a roof added. TBH, I was more bothered by what looked like a 'Batmobile' nostril at the front. Thinking 60's TV car, not any movie version.
Having grown up with 917s, and 512s, PROPER LM cars have a roof on. Barchetta's are little class entries. Despite the 936 and A442! Never mind assorted Audi open models, Bentley was their last 'proper' car. The R18 is a welcome return to the fold!

I wonder if some of the reasoning behind an open car, with petrol engine, was the need to use aircon in closed cockpits, or has that gone, while I wasn't reading the fine print? At which point I'm rambling, and you should ignore me.

[Victor_RO]

Interview with David Richards at the Autosport Show. First part is about the Mini WRC program, then about the Aston Martin LMP1 project.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEtMi...layer_embedded

Single-car entry confirmed for Sebring, first chassis has been manufactured, engine first run on the dyno this week.

[Tim the Grey]

The single car at Sebring is, I think, the ALMS season long Lola Aston?

There's no real 'news' in other words, which explains his total absence from the show yesterday...

[Victor_RO]

Originally Posted by Tim the Grey

The single car at Sebring is, I think, the ALMS season long Lola Aston?

There's no real 'news' in other words, which explains his total absence from the show yesterday...

No, it's a single 2011 LMP1 car. Cytosport's car is privately-entered, DR was talking about factory cars.

[Deleted]

"-- we'll be doing a few more races in States and in the Le Mans Series"

So does that mean that the factory team might do more ALMS rounds than just Sebring and PLM?

[Victor_RO]

Possible, considering DR's emphasis on 2011 being a year of getting miles under the car's belt I'd say that they might go for the longer races at Laguna Seca and Road America.

[Tim the Grey]

They plan to be there, but the bodywork hasn't been made yet, and the engine only went on the dyno today...

This is just a tad ambitious, IMHO!
Still, good luck to them, and I hope they will be there.

[joeb]

Originally Posted by Tim the Grey

They plan to be there, but the bodywork hasn't been made yet, and the engine only went on the dyno today...

This is just a tad ambitious, IMHO!
Still, good luck to them, and I hope they will be there.

Exactly. Audi has track tested the R18 and doesn't think it will be ready for Sebring, while Aston hasn't even put a car together yet and they think they can make it? More power to them if they can!

[chernaudi]

Granted, AMR is dealing with a gasoline engine, but even at that, this program seems to be on rush order.

Audi have had the R18 on track since November, but they're not risking a Sebring debut, and even Peugeot may be pushing it with a 90X debut at Sebring as far as a proven car, and we know that they've been testing since the very least September/October, if not earlier, like possibly July.

Only reason why the ARX-01e will be out for Sebring is that the tub is a proven design, and the engine/gearbox is proven (probably a destroked 4.0 LMP1 V8 and updated Wirth/Xtrac gearbox from the ARX-02), and that it takes form the ARX-02 the LMP1 design experience, though the two cars aren't obvioulsy directly related.

I think that AMR may be pushing it unless they have Audi like plans for the new car (a huge number of 30 hour test). I think running the performance balanced cars until the new machine is well tested is a better choice. It seems that the program got the green light a little late, as Audi designed the R18 back when they were designing the 2010 R15 and the Pug was probably designed in a similar timeframe.

It'll be interesting what the AMR timeframe has been so far, as engine dyno testing has only begun and only one tub has been made.

[NaBUru38]

I asked Adrián Fernández on Twitter something similar to "Will you have an ALMS programme with CytoSport and Aston Martin?". He answered "that's right". He wrote so somebody else that he will do all ILMC races but China plus Lime Rock and Laguna Seca.

[Victor_RO]

So Lime Rock and Laguna with Pickett in the old Lola and Sebring and Petit in the new car?