BMW confirms Z4 GTE for American Le Mans Series

[Fogelhund]

Originally Posted by Canada ALMS fan

A car running a production based frame, transmission, suspension is a silhouette car? So the C6.R Vette is a sihouette car then too I guess. That's a little extreme.

A production Vette runs a V8. The rules (a mistake reducing the displacement, likely rectified this offseason), required them to sleeve the engine.

A car running a different engine architecture is a Silhouette car.

[WolfsburgRS]

I have to disagree to some extent there. Sure a car running a motor it isn't / wasn't / hasn't been equipped with is outside of the spirit of the rules with regards to homologation and all that, but it certainly isn't a silhouette car. Silhouette cars have no more resemblance to their production counterparts aside from basically looking the same when viewed from the side in profile. A silhouette car is a FWD Celica with no turbo converted to a Mustang-beating RWD turbo monster, and still being a 'Celica.' The Z4 may not meet the letter of the GTE rules out of the box, but it's no tube-framer.

[zr1 fan]

should be an interesting 2013 to see what the rules makers do

[HORNDAWG]

Originally Posted by WolfsburgRS

I have to disagree to some extent there. Sure a car running a motor it isn't / wasn't / hasn't been equipped with is outside of the spirit of the rules with regards to homologation and all that, but it certainly isn't a silhouette car. Silhouette cars have no more resemblance to their production counterparts aside from basically looking the same when viewed from the side in profile. A silhouette car is a FWD Celica with no turbo converted to a Mustang-beating RWD turbo monster, and still being a 'Celica.' The Z4 may not meet the letter of the GTE rules out of the box, but it's not a Silhouette car.

FIFY, and I agree!




L.P.

[Canada ALMS fan]

Originally Posted by Fogelhund

A car running a different engine architecture is a Silhouette car.

I would say Grand Am prep 2 and DTM are silhouette cars. When I watch GT racing the key is the car is built around a production chassis, I look at a hotter engine the same way I look at the brakes being bigger and the bodywork being made of carbon fibre - these are upgrades that don't change the essence of the car IMO. I know that is not within the spirit of the rules. If the engine was a crate production motor then I agree with you but often the only thing they have in common with the production counterpart is the block. If BMW did not manufacture a V8 at all for the road then I would have a problem with it too. The Lotus Evora is a turbo on the street but the GTE is NA, that's ok.

[TF110]

They should drop the 'stock engine' rule IMO. And the size limit. I'd love to see a V8 in the Z4, a V12 in the Vantage etc. With that at least there's no reason to 'homologate' certain cars with engines used elsewhere in their street lineup. The Evora uses a Toyota engine. And it's not Turbocharged.

[Canada ALMS fan]

Originally Posted by TF110

They should drop the 'stock engine' rule IMO. And the size limit. I'd love to see a V8 in the Z4, a V12 in the Vantage etc. With that at least there's no reason to 'homologate' certain cars with engines used elsewhere in their street lineup. The Evora uses a Toyota engine. And it's not Turbocharged.

Sorry, it is available as a 3.5L supercharged. I believe the GTE one is a 4L NA by Cosworth.
In a perfect world your engine scenario could be the FIA GT1 series (and a great one at that) but that is not reality sadly.

[TF110]

I know, GTE isn't as great as what ACO or FIA GT1 used to be IMO. The level of competition is better surely, as in the factory makes competing.

[Koenigsegg]

Originally Posted by Fogelhund

That was a mistake in the rules in my opinion. They used to allow such engines, and they should rectify that this off season. At least the Viper runs a V10 on the street. BMW will not offer a V8 in the Z4, effectively making it a silhouette car.

It is a real shame that they chose not to run the I6 TT. I'd far prefer that be BoP'd into being competitive over this solution.

What would you prefer?

Option A: A BMW Z4 GTE with a V8 engine used in the Z4 GT3 and M3 GT (and M3 streetcar). Development already done and a proven engine.
Option B: No BMW in GTE because they're not allowed to use the V8. Development costs for the I6 TT are (probably) too high.

I would choose Option A.

[arakis]

Id prefer cars racing with engines they are built with. So the Z4 racing with a I6 is what should be done, if the engine is not up to scratch to compete against Ferraris, Porsches, Corvettes, or Martins, then the z4 should not be there at all.. Z4s are not in the same league as the cars above on the road, a should not be racing them, and thus giving a false image of a BMW being on par with them, when in fact it's way below....My 2 cents...

I don't understand all this hype, and rule bending just to add a single manufacturer which will never sell any customer cars at all...We have enough competition without them, there's no need to bend over to BMWs every whim all the time...

I mean seriously in the last 12 years every time BMW entered GT racing, rulz had to be tailored to their whims, going back to the 2000 season of ALMS when they drooped the M5s engine into the M3..

[cbbrit]

Originally Posted by arakis

Id prefer cars racing with engines they are built with. So the Z4 racing with a I6 is what should be done, if the engine is not up to scratch to compete against Ferraris, Porsches, Corvettes, or Martins, then the z4 should not be there at all.. Z4s are not in the same league as the cars above on the road, a should not be racing them, and thus giving a false image of a BMW being on par with them, when in fact it's way below....My 2 cents...

I don't understand all this hype, and rule bending just to add a single manufacturer which will never sell any customer cars at all...We have enough competition without them, there's no need to bend over to BMWs every whim all the time...

I mean seriously in the last 12 years every time BMW entered GT racing, rulz had to be tailored to their whims, going back to the 2000 season of ALMS when they drooped the M5s engine into the M3..

Exactly! And when I asked an IMSA Official if I could get an entry to run an Audi R8 LMS/Ultra at Petit this year, unclassified, I was told "No! It doesn't fit our business model". Then I asked about 2013 and was told the same thing! But BMW is now allowed to run their Z4 with a non-homologated Z4 GTE V8 engine because evidently "it must fit our business model"!
As you correctly said, the rules are tailored to their every whim! What are you afraid of IMSA, that the R8 would kick the Z4's but?

[rich07]

Originally Posted by arakis

I mean seriously in the last 12 years every time BMW entered GT racing, rulz had to be tailored to their whims, going back to the 2000 season of ALMS when they drooped the M5s engine into the M3..

That wasnt an M5 engine. Although several M3 GTR racers were fitted with the 5.0L V8 from the E39 M5.

I want BMW to stay in GT racing so I dont mind if they run a car that doesnt run the same engine but as long as its a freely available production engine used in one of BMW's roadcars unlike the 4.0L M3 GTR V8 engine which itself wasnt a production item found in a roadcar--it was a pure race engine unlike the M3 sourced V8 you'll find under the bonnet of the Z4 GT3.

[Koenigsegg]

Originally Posted by arakis

Id prefer cars racing with engines they are built with. So the Z4 racing with a I6 is what should be done, if the engine is not up to scratch to compete against Ferraris, Porsches, Corvettes, or Martins, then the z4 should not be there at all.. Z4s are not in the same league as the cars above on the road, a should not be racing them, and thus giving a false image of a BMW being on par with them, when in fact it's way below

Aston Martin V8 Vantage is also not in the same league as those cars. The V8 Vantage is more on par, if not on par, with the Z4 sDrive35is. Would you say Aston Martin is giving a false image?

[Tzyghan]

Z4 in GT3 - ok, with V8 engine taken from M3, it is a small beast. But Z4 in GTE, with Porsche, Ferrari, Corvette? As you said - those are the other class cars, even M6 is not in this category... I'm afraid, that it comes the same in GT, what in for example WTCC and WRC - smaller cars, smaller engines... And what about the spirit? It doesn't matter...

[Pandamasque]

Are we talking about ALMS-only 'homologation' or is it run through ACO?

Originally Posted by Fogelhund

A production Vette runs a V8. The rules (a mistake reducing the displacement, likely rectified this offseason), required them to sleeve the engine.

A car running a different engine architecture is a Silhouette car.

And transmission layout, in Z4's case. M3 had the same issue.

Originally Posted by Koenigsegg

Aston Martin V8 Vantage is also not in the same league as those cars. The V8 Vantage is more on par, if not on par, with the Z4 sDrive35is. Would you say Aston Martin is giving a false image?

V8 Vantage is directly competing with base 911.

[Fogelhund]

Originally Posted by Pandamasque

Are we talking about ALMS-only 'homologation' or is it run through ACO?

Looks like ALMS only "homologation"

And transmission layout, in Z4's case. M3 had the same issue.

The transmission is less of an issue to me, the engine is the heart of the car. Might as well let the Nissan GT-R run too.

[MitchZ06]

Fogel, the Nissan GTR GT3 runs the twin turbo V6 so your comment is kind of moot...

[Fogelhund]

Originally Posted by MitchZ06

Fogel, the Nissan GTR GT3 runs the twin turbo V6 so your comment is kind of moot...

I'm talking about the GT1 variant, with RWD and the V8.

-----

Seeing as Porsche appears to be having issues with their new 991 engine for racing, perhaps they can just put the V10 from the Carrera in the back, surely that would help with their competitiveness?

[JorritVD]

I don't think they will going to use the 4.4L V8 from the GT3, but instead will use the 4L GTE engine from the M3.

First because I don't think they will be allowed.
second, why change a GT3 engine into a GTE engine, when you already can use the fully developed GTE engine from the M3.

But offcourse I hope they will use the GT3 engine, because that sound is just amazing :P

[Fogelhund]

Originally Posted by JorritVD

I don't think they will going to use the 4.4L V8 from the GT3, but instead will use the 4L GTE engine from the M3.

First because I don't think they will be allowed.
second, why change a GT3 engine into a GTE engine, when you already can use the fully developed GTE engine from the M3.

But offcourse I hope they will use the GT3 engine, because that sound is just amazing :P

They will be using the 4.4, already confirmed.

[jsTrecu]

In my opinion GT cars should be raced with the same engine their road variant use.

I like the idea of a Z4 racing in GTE, but what's the point of using a championship as a marketing tool if you have to modify your product into a completely different one in order to compete ?
All the cars are heavily modified, but as fogelhund said, "the engine is the heart of the car", and I think it should remain the same.

[Canada ALMS fan]

Originally Posted by cbbrit

Exactly! And when I asked an IMSA Official if I could get an entry to run an Audi R8 LMS/Ultra at Petit this year, unclassified, I was told "No! It doesn't fit our business model". Then I asked about 2013 and was told the same thing! But BMW is now allowed to run their Z4 with a non-homologated Z4 GTE V8 engine because evidently "it must fit our business model"!
As you correctly said, the rules are tailored to their every whim! What are you afraid of IMSA, that the R8 would kick the Z4's but?

Brutal. I can't believe Audi and Ferrari dumbed down their R8 and 458 respectively to Grand Am spec but hearing the above, I can see why it made sense for Audi at least.

[JorritVD]

Originally Posted by Fogelhund

They will be using the 4.4, already confirmed.

by who? source?

[gwyllion]

Originally Posted by JorritVD

by who? source?

http://twitter.com/BMWUSARacing/stat...83229517434880

The 4.4 V8 is based on the engine of the M3 GTS road car.

[Rodger Davies]

Originally Posted by Koenigsegg

What would you prefer?

Option A: A BMW Z4 GTE with a V8 engine used in the Z4 GT3 and M3 GT (and M3 streetcar). Development already done and a proven engine.
Option B: No BMW in GTE because they're not allowed to use the V8. Development costs for the I6 TT are (probably) too high.

I would choose Option A.

I'd leave that decision to the other manufacturers and see what they said/voted on.