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Old 21 Jul 2011, 21:15 (Ref:2929591)   #76
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I think that's the problem, it's more like an LMP coupe with open suspension than a single seater with a closed cockpit. I have no objection to the idea of a closed cockpit, and wrapping the bodywork more around the wheels like the FCJ design would prevent wheel-over-wheel crashes, which are really dangerous. I'd happily see that FCJ design as the blueprint for F3 cars (with minor powertrain quibbles, 1800 turbos in the vain of the FPA lumps would be good, they produced a lot of power and IIRC lasted over a season between rebuilds).
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Old 21 Jul 2011, 22:47 (Ref:2929635)   #77
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The bit I was taking out of it Duketoaster was the treatment of the cockpit area with the full canopy.
The wheel fairings and lights should not be there, but anti wheel hop hoops may be a good idea to promote close racing.
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Old 21 Jul 2011, 23:01 (Ref:2929640)   #78
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There's nothing much that's really new.

Back in the 1960s Frank Costin designed a Formula 2 car that had had an enclosed cockpit, but purely for aerodynamic reasons. There was a small vent in front of the driver's eyes, presumably in case the cockpit cover became obscured with oil or whatever.

Frank had worked for De Havilland in WWII and had a big part in the design of the Mosquito. Everything he designed was as slippery and fast as could be. To him that was what aerodynamic meant.

Here's a photo of the Protos. In front is a bare tub that was never built up and behind, #48, a car showing the canopy.
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Old 21 Jul 2011, 23:36 (Ref:2929649)   #79
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Thanks for that Strider, plywood too, so it would technically be an early composite monocoque chassis.

This sourced of your post was quite interesting, Rodriguez apparently crashed it at Enna.

http://www.maranellomerchandise.com/...ing_Wheel.html


and while we are on revolutionary things have a look at this


http://www.racetechmag.com/blog/details.php?id=83

Smoky Yannucks Indy car was certainly right out there.
Adrian Neweys Red Bull full size mock up for Playstation is also featured at the end.

Last edited by wnut; 21 Jul 2011 at 23:57.
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Old 22 Jul 2011, 03:58 (Ref:2929671)   #80
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Originally Posted by duke_toaster View Post
I think that's the problem, it's more like an LMP coupe with open suspension than a single seater with a closed cockpit. I have no objection to the idea of a closed cockpit, and wrapping the bodywork more around the wheels like the FCJ design would prevent wheel-over-wheel crashes, which are really dangerous. I'd happily see that FCJ design as the blueprint for F3 cars (with minor powertrain quibbles, 1800 turbos in the vain of the FPA lumps would be good, they produced a lot of power and IIRC lasted over a season between rebuilds).
There is an accident that became the motivation of this FCJ "safety" concept. The accident happened in the Formula Dream race at Suzuka in 2002 (warmup race of F1). This chassis was made by Dome, and Hirokazu Nagaya was rendered paraplegic. The chairman of JMIA is a president of Dome (Minoru Hayashi).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3A7BwNccPxQ
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Old 22 Jul 2011, 10:02 (Ref:2929738)   #81
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There is an accident that became the motivation of this FCJ "safety" concept. The accident happened in the Formula Dream race at Suzuka in 2002 (warmup race of F1). This chassis was made by Dome, and Hirokazu Nagaya was rendered paraplegic. The chairman of JMIA is a president of Dome (Minoru Hayashi).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3A7BwNccPxQ
Thanks Japanese Samurai.

Another case for a protective canopy - could only help.

That is a frightening accident, with awful results. Was his head injured when he hit the camera tower, how lucky was the camera man. Wheel entanglement?

The clown's on this forum that don't think racing is dangerous and in need of continuous work on safety need to take note.

Awful just awful, this is what I hate about racing!
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Old 22 Jul 2011, 10:43 (Ref:2929749)   #82
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This accident was not canopy problem. It was a tire to tire accident.

And about Nagaya.
He launched the original fashion brand "Piro Racing" for the wheelchair user after this accident.
And, he returned to the race by the racing kart that was able to be driven with the hand!
http://www.piroracing.com/
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Old 22 Jul 2011, 11:27 (Ref:2929759)   #83
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Not speaking Japanese, I can't read the text on the diagram of the FCJ design, but that thing in front of the driver designed to be there for debris hitting drivers or another reason? I don't see why plane-style canopies would be unduly expensive in single seater racing, visually they would be a change but I think that's a price worth paying. I don't see any reason why it would be insurmountably difficult to make it possible to remove in a crash (for example, there are cars with gullwing doors racing, and they have buttons to release the doors).
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Old 22 Jul 2011, 11:42 (Ref:2929761)   #84
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Not speaking Japanese, I can't read the text on the diagram of the FCJ design, but that thing in front of the driver designed to be there for debris hitting drivers or another reason? I don't see why plane-style canopies would be unduly expensive in single seater racing, visually they would be a change but I think that's a price worth paying. I don't see any reason why it would be insurmountably difficult to make it possible to remove in a crash (for example, there are cars with gullwing doors racing, and they have buttons to release the doors).
Yes. It is "front roll-bar"
It is an answer effective to decrease driver's danger in the formula car.
JMIA says "the screen of tempered glass is also optional."
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Old 22 Jul 2011, 12:21 (Ref:2929771)   #85
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http://www.racetechmag.com/blog/details.php?id=83

Smoky Yannucks Indy car was certainly right out there.
Adrian Neweys Red Bull full size mock up for Playstation is also featured at the end.
Blimey - that Newey beast is a cracker. I'd prefer mad cars like that than the current single seater designs. And imagine the general populaces excitement at something that looked like that racing around.
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Old 22 Jul 2011, 14:15 (Ref:2929798)   #86
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The lights would undoubtedly help in wet / low light conditions. The drivers are often complaining of not being able to see other cars (DC lol).

Covering the wheels makes huge aerodynamic gains and would already be standard practice except the FIA didnt like it and banned it (shock).

Plus youve got more of that road relevance they harp on about. Its a shame they are already banning innovative turbo tech though as its an area F1 could really advance.

Actually how far fetched is it that we will start to see road cars with blown diffusers in the next 10-15 years?
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Old 22 Jul 2011, 23:09 (Ref:2929970)   #87
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Actually how far fetched is it that we will start to see road cars with blown diffusers in the next 10-15 years?
In my view....very far fetched....isn't there something about car exhausts that dictates the end must be within 'X' distance of the end of the car...?

Apart from that....why would you bother...? Why would you really need extra downforce on road cars, given the speed restrictions in place...?

I don't think road cars would generally sit low enough to get much benefit from it anyway...JM2PW
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Old 22 Jul 2011, 23:09 (Ref:2929971)   #88
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This accident was not canopy problem. It was a tire to tire accident.

And about Nagaya.
He launched the original fashion brand "Piro Racing" for the wheelchair user after this accident.
And, he returned to the race by the racing kart that was able to be driven with the hand!
http://www.piroracing.com/
I was refering to the canopy possibly helping when the car went upside down over the scaffolding.
Do you by any chance know how he was injured? Were they whiplash type injuries, or head injuries caused by contact with an object outside the car?

Good to know he is making the best of his situation.
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Old 23 Jul 2011, 08:37 (Ref:2930043)   #89
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In my view....very far fetched....isn't there something about car exhausts that dictates the end must be within 'X' distance of the end of the car...?

Apart from that....why would you bother...? Why would you really need extra downforce on road cars, given the speed restrictions in place...?

I don't think road cars would generally sit low enough to get much benefit from it anyway...JM2PW
There is no regulation on exhaust exit location. Just cant have any sharp edges.

No there is no point, you dont need any extra speed in road cars but that doesnt stop the arms race to get faster round a track and have a higher top speed.

The height I agree on.
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Old 23 Jul 2011, 10:04 (Ref:2930050)   #90
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Do Moto GP forums have these types of discussions or do they just get on with it?
AWESOME post.

When all branches of motorsport are homogenised into generic sportscar designs, that's when I think I'll finally be jaded enough to pursue other interests. IndyCar is already going that route by adding what have already been referred to as 'bumpers' It's funny, I don't remember wheel to wheel contact being anywhere near as much of a frequent problem in the US prior to the IRL and their flight happy Dallaras with underpowered engines that encourage pack racing.

F1 has never been safer, but it seems to attract more health and safety zealots than any other formula. It's funny how national series such as British F3, still mega quick relative to the old-school circuits they race on, just go about their business while there's a predictable over reaction and debate after every big accident in F1 these days (ie. Perez at Monaco).

Sensible improvements have been made (ie. raised cockpit sides, barrier technology) but the sport has to retain an element of risk; it's simply part of the spectacle and what makes these drivers HEROES doing something we know we could never do. No-one is forcing anyone to race in single-seaters or F1. If someone feels that risk isn't for them, then go and do touring cars or sportscars or take up some other sport.
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Old 23 Jul 2011, 10:41 (Ref:2930068)   #91
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Sensible improvements have been made (ie. raised cockpit sides, barrier technology) but the sport has to retain an element of risk; it's simply part of the spectacle and what makes these drivers HEROES doing something we know we could never do. No-one is forcing anyone to race in single-seaters or F1. If someone feels that risk isn't for them, then go and do touring cars or sportscars or take up some other sport.
Exactly why safer cars are a good idea. They we can get rid of the neutered Tilke-dromes and have them race at proper tracks again, without constantly killing drivers.
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Old 23 Jul 2011, 12:16 (Ref:2930098)   #92
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Do you by any chance know how he was injured? Were they whiplash type injuries, or head injuries caused by contact with an object outside the car?
His handicap (C6) originates in the cervical spine injury.
So it might be whiplash type injury.
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Old 23 Jul 2011, 13:26 (Ref:2930115)   #93
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The post was in response to this bit of gttouring's post

"i can't think of many World of Outlaw or Midget/ sprint USAC silver crown head accidents from debris, and someone goes end over end in every race."

I was merely eluding to the fact that Sprint car racing is not a bastion of good practice in racing safety, do in fact have full roll cages around the drivers, and still does injure and kill a lot of drivers.


Go here

http://www.motorsportmemorial.org/index.php?db=ct

and search for Sprint Car fatalities. 27 Fatalities since 2000.
I have no idea how many injuries.
I hope you did the research well (but suspect not) because the first one I happened to check turned out to be a spectator killed by flying debris which, while unfortunate, is hardly relevant to driver safety.
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Old 23 Jul 2011, 15:13 (Ref:2930138)   #94
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If having a closed canopy on a F1 car would have saved one drivers life, then it's a very small price to pay, I am all for it...
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Old 23 Jul 2011, 16:21 (Ref:2930149)   #95
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Exactly why safer cars are a good idea. They we can get rid of the neutered Tilke-dromes and have them race at proper tracks again, without constantly killing drivers.
That would never happen. Even the cars were made so safe you could walk away from a 200mph head on with a brick wall, the FIA would still want to make absolutely sure. So all the car-park circuits would have to remain.
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Old 24 Jul 2011, 01:59 (Ref:2930306)   #96
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If having a closed canopy on a F1 car would have saved one drivers life, then it's a very small price to pay, I am all for it...

DITTO
and just off hand there are quite a few.

and bring back gravel traps Fox89.
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Old 24 Jul 2011, 05:25 (Ref:2930331)   #97
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Why not just stop motorsport altogether? Then there'll be no risk at all.

I don't think it is necessary. Firstly, in my opinion it would look ridiculous and secondly, there will presumably be an issue with vacating the car within X seconds. Thirdly...just no. What next, wrapping the cars in cotton wool?
I think such a way of looking at things can bring no improvement to life. Then why did we add seat belts. lets take them off because they werent there in the very early single seaters very back in the days. Right?!
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Old 24 Jul 2011, 06:00 (Ref:2930335)   #98
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Drink Sounds like an idea

The only thing I see an AC unit would be required and the cabin will have to get little bigger and perhaps the whole car would grow bigger too. But now we have LM Prototypes not a Formula...unless if the canopt is very simple one just to act as a sheild.

Perhaps dipping the driver further down and having slightly higher cabin edges and in creasing the size on the small shield on the dash (the 1 inch transparent thing you see above the steering on the front of the cockpit) of the F1 driver would be a good way in between.

Also further R&D in making F1 helmets safer. In the military they have Kevlar suits that shields agains small mines and gernades. Why not use that technology there if it is not yet used?
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Old 24 Jul 2011, 17:54 (Ref:2930461)   #99
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The only thing I see an AC unit would be required and the cabin will have to get little bigger and perhaps the whole car would grow bigger too. But now we have LM Prototypes not a Formula...unless if the canopt is very simple one just to act as a sheild.

Also further R&D in making F1 helmets safer. In the military they have Kevlar suits that shields agains small mines and gernades. Why not use that technology there if it is not yet used?
Not sure that touring cars (or anything enclosed) have AC, and they seem to be fine ventilation wise - remember there is a 60->190mph airstream for all you aircon needs.

The helmets are even now very impressive (Already use carbon kevlar I believe http://www.formula1.com/inside_f1/sa...hing/7438.html), but the point of the canopy is to deflect debris before it hits the helmet, thus avoiding broken necks. If you are hit on the head by a wheel doing 100mph, I'm not sure any sort of helmet is going to help.
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Old 24 Jul 2011, 19:58 (Ref:2930514)   #100
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The only thing I see an AC unit would be required and the cabin will have to get little bigger and perhaps the whole car would grow bigger too. But now we have LM Prototypes not a Formula...unless if the canopt is very simple one just to act as a sheild.
The Audi R18 doesn't run AC, they are able to achieve enough cooling with airflow. And the R18 has a bigger cockpit to cool than an F1 car would.
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