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5 Nov 2005, 17:05 (Ref:1452878) | #26 | ||
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Right, and if you don't agree you can post in other threads where you can contribute instead of this one.
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5 Nov 2005, 17:13 (Ref:1452883) | #27 | ||
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In terms of performance Vs. results, I;d have to go for Gilles to be a multiple world champ, especially in 1979
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5 Nov 2005, 17:39 (Ref:1452900) | #28 | ||
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If you thought the thread was useless, you wouldn't've contributed such a long list of 'answers' to it - you would have got stroppy before someone rationally disagreed with them. But anyway.
I don't go as far as to say that anyone who gets to F1 could win races, plenty of drivers who really lack the ultimate talent buy their way in. What's more, the top team owners can usually spot a gifted driver even if their results don't show it up to that moment - Frank Williams and Eddie Jordan have been especially good in that area, Still, the fact is that 10 drivers on the current grid have won races, so it seems like a lot of potential winners never get their chance. |
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6 Nov 2005, 11:39 (Ref:1453302) | #29 | |||
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6 Nov 2005, 11:53 (Ref:1453312) | #30 | |||
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Provide examples please! |
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6 Nov 2005, 12:11 (Ref:1453322) | #31 | ||
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Kimi in 2003, 2005 is the first to spring to mind, Mansell several times around 1990. A few others will pop up when I have had a few less beers!
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"Centipede: An ant built to government specifications" |
6 Nov 2005, 13:18 (Ref:1453345) | #32 | ||
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Kimi in 2003? How's that, 1994 comes to mind. In 2005 Kimi didn't have a consistent car. Wait Kimi is so good but his car let him down. Have another beer mate, machine first as I have argued with you.
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6 Nov 2005, 14:07 (Ref:1453354) | #33 | |
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This thread looks like its looping round in circles a bit. The concept of justice does not exist in sport, particularly not in motor-sport. Therefore, it follows that the idea of somebody DESERVING to win a championship really doesn't make sense at all. The person who won it, won it. That's it. We can hypothesize for ever on what might have been if circumstances were otherwise, but they weren't. What may be better to do on this thread here is to talk about who we would have liked to have won and why.
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6 Nov 2005, 15:34 (Ref:1453406) | #34 | ||
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Let's not miss the point.
Every WDC deserved the title, and the merits of it it's not the subject of this thread. The subject is that the efforts of other driver could have made him the champion, and why not he was. I found this one valid, because, in some years, all you have to look is at the statistics and who took the crown. The losers, even almost there, are forgotten. BUT... If anyone comes and say that the driver X was champion because of lucky and the driver Y deserved what the other took, is then out of context, and won't be allowed. Luck is when opportunity meets preparation. When Mika Hakkinen lost his win at spain (I think, ?!?) at the last lap, because a car failure, and TGF was right behind him, it was because he was prepared, the car, the team and he opportunity was there. Luck, we all say. |
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6 Nov 2005, 15:40 (Ref:1453409) | #35 | ||
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Michael wasn't "right behind " Mika, he was falling back at a huge rate. In fact, several cars unlapped themselves from Michael in the final laps of the race, whcih resulted in those cars being able to complete the final lap and thus push Mika out of the points. Mika's car didn't reach the finish, so it didn't matter how far behind Michael was (as long as he was 2nd, of course).
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6 Nov 2005, 15:58 (Ref:1453420) | #36 | ||
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Thanks, to remind me !
See, opportunity met preparation ! so simple boots... |
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6 Nov 2005, 16:47 (Ref:1453448) | #37 | ||
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6 Nov 2005, 17:09 (Ref:1453455) | #38 | |||
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To put simply : "Lucky" is not an option to debate. |
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6 Nov 2005, 20:22 (Ref:1453561) | #39 | |||
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6 Nov 2005, 21:22 (Ref:1453629) | #40 | |
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Jacques Villeneuve's championship puzzles me after the 8 seasons he's raced after that win. I'm not sure he deserved his win in 1997 because he gained a few wins because of other drivers' mechanical woes (Hill and Hakkinen spring to mind), but I wouldn't say M Schumacher deserved it after their infamous coming-together, although some of his drives that year were typically superb. But apart from 1997, I don't recall any driver winning the championship that didn't deserve to. You win by getting the most points. You can't fluke a championship win, it requires great skill.
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6 Nov 2005, 21:28 (Ref:1453641) | #41 | ||
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Didn't always used to be *completely* down to getting the most points - wonder what the championships today would have looked like if we still had the "best 12 results count" style of rules...
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6 Nov 2005, 21:47 (Ref:1453668) | #42 | |
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Getting the most points based on the rules then.
I never did see the point in the 'best 11 scores' system. No doubt there is a logical reason though. |
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6 Nov 2005, 23:01 (Ref:1453740) | #43 | ||
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The reason is that is encourages drivers to go for it and it can also factors out some reliability issues that may not be a driver's fault.
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6 Nov 2005, 23:33 (Ref:1453758) | #44 | ||
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Sadly, though, it can also, in effect, punish high reliaiblity and consistent finishing. If Driver X has finished more regularly than Driver Y, but when each has finished each has always scored points... Well, it can mean Driver X actively loses points to Driver Y as a result of finishing more races than Driver Y.
That seems a bit tight; but, of course, people willingly take part under said rules so there can never be any complaints about the results. |
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7 Nov 2005, 03:44 (Ref:1453831) | #45 | |||
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7 Nov 2005, 05:01 (Ref:1453850) | #46 | |
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1976 - Niki Lauda
1981 - Alan Jones 1982 - Gilles Villeneuve 1983 - Gilles Villeneuve 1984 - Alain Prost 1986 - Nigel Mansell 1987 - Nigel Mansell 1988 - Alain Prost 1989 - Ayrton Senna 1990 - Alain Prost 1993 - Ayrton Senna 1994 - Ayrton Senna |
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7 Nov 2005, 17:07 (Ref:1454376) | #47 | ||
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This has continued to develop quite nicely ladies and gentleman.
Thank you Bononi for continuing to keep a tight rein on postings, and on the whole there's some extra points that have been raised that i hadn't originally considered. I would like to say, and i'm sorry if it's already been said - that the thread is a good opportunity to study the form guide of a given season in order to judghe who ought to have won the title. I certainly don't want to take anything away from any of the WDC's, but there are certain cases where the quickest car/driver didm't win the title when he/they really ought to have Or putting it another way, some drivers won the title by being a bit more canny than their chief rival/s, or their equipment proved to be fairly bulletproof so that in races where one or 2 guys were quicker they either won through greater reliability, or, they were consistent enough to finish strongly and in the points to maintain a points haul etc... I think 2 good examples of this are 2003, where Schuey realised at about a third of the way through the season that he didn't have the package (namely tyres) to win all the time, so he set about finishing as strongly as he could. I would say on balance that Montoya should've won it - he had the car and the pace for most of the season and Kimi perhaps to a lesser degree could've won it judging by what he did in a car not quite on the pace? The quickest guy that year wasn't Schuey but he did what he had to to take the crown ( i bet he thought he wasn't going to do it thoiugh!!) The second example i would use that immediately springs to mind is 1983. For my money the title was Prost's to lose ( and he did!) The Renaut was a good enough car and Prost was damn good all the year through but near the end ofthe season, BMW found something extra for Piquet and he 'stole' it way from Alain. (i must buy the vid actually as from memoery it was a close race, if not quite as good as the previoss 2 years?) BTW Trev, your list i pretty much agree with but i have this sneaking suspicion that after those early races, Ayrton would have found the deficit too much for him to make up in '94 -he would have tried very hard but i think he would have gone off a lot trying ( it would have been a bit like this year where Kimi had no option but to go for broke to make the difference up on Alonso, and Schu would finisehd second or third most of the time anyway) However, that isn't taking into account the points su#ystem at the time as Dutton and Dickens have touched on, or Schuey's DQ's from several races that year!! |
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7 Nov 2005, 17:33 (Ref:1454409) | #48 | ||
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If Alain hadn't done what he did on the morning of the Dutch Grand Prix, a whole series of events which resulted in him not winning the 1983 title may not have happened |
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7 Nov 2005, 18:21 (Ref:1454465) | #49 | ||
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1994 - had the tragedies at Imola not happened, then it would have played out differently - weather or not a Senna comeback would have forced Benetton to up their game or have some more errors and DSQ's, we'll never know, but can only speculate...
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7 Nov 2005, 21:34 (Ref:1454664) | #50 | |
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One thing I've always thought is that if Senna was still alive for 1994, the penalties handed down to Schumacher in 1994 would not have been as severe as they were. I think it was done to tighten up the championship, as Schumacher was romping away with the title, the last thing the FIA/Bernie needed was a one sided contest. People would have turned away in droves with a boring championship and the death of Senna.
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