Home  
Site Partners: SpotterGuides Veloce Books  
Related Sites: Your Link Here  

Go Back   TenTenths Motorsport Forum > Single Seater Racing > Formula One

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 5 Nov 2005, 17:05 (Ref:1452878)   #26
Bononi
Race Official
20KPINAL
 
Bononi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 1999
Location:
Deep in the Chaos Nation's countryside
Posts: 21,606
Bononi will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameBononi will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameBononi will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameBononi will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameBononi will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameBononi will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameBononi will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameBononi will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameBononi will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameBononi will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Fame
Right, and if you don't agree you can post in other threads where you can contribute instead of this one.
Bononi is offline  
__________________
Show me a man who won't give it to his woman
An' I'll show you somebody who will
Quote
Old 5 Nov 2005, 17:13 (Ref:1452883)   #27
Nintendo
Racer
 
Nintendo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Ireland
Dublin
Posts: 377
Nintendo has a lot of promise if they can keep it on the circuit!
In terms of performance Vs. results, I;d have to go for Gilles to be a multiple world champ, especially in 1979
Nintendo is offline  
__________________
I'm semi evil, i'm quasi evil. I am the Diet Coke of evil. just one calorie, not evil enough.
Quote
Old 5 Nov 2005, 17:39 (Ref:1452900)   #28
BootsOntheSide
Veteran
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
England
Eastbourne, England
Posts: 13,000
BootsOntheSide should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridBootsOntheSide should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridBootsOntheSide should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridBootsOntheSide should be qualifying in the top 3 on the grid
If you thought the thread was useless, you wouldn't've contributed such a long list of 'answers' to it - you would have got stroppy before someone rationally disagreed with them. But anyway.

I don't go as far as to say that anyone who gets to F1 could win races, plenty of drivers who really lack the ultimate talent buy their way in. What's more, the top team owners can usually spot a gifted driver even if their results don't show it up to that moment - Frank Williams and Eddie Jordan have been especially good in that area, Still, the fact is that 10 drivers on the current grid have won races, so it seems like a lot of potential winners never get their chance.
BootsOntheSide is offline  
Quote
Old 6 Nov 2005, 11:39 (Ref:1453302)   #29
SpawnyWhippet
Veteran
 
SpawnyWhippet's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
United Kingdom
Singapore
Posts: 730
SpawnyWhippet has a lot of promise if they can keep it on the circuit!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kicking-back
There's not a single world title there been won by anyone who didn't deserve it.

It's scoring the points under the rules of the season that counts.
Unusual for me to say this, but I disagree with you here, K-B. I think in the history of F1, there are several drivers who deserved the F1 WDC more than the guy who ended up winning it. Sure, the drivers who actually picked up the WDC were extremely talented drivers too, but the dice rolled their way a bit more than for the other guy who may have been quicker, scored more poles etc, but who was ultimately let down by bad luck / reliability issues.
SpawnyWhippet is offline  
__________________
"Centipede: An ant built to government specifications"
Quote
Old 6 Nov 2005, 11:53 (Ref:1453312)   #30
flashF1
Racer
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Canada
Canada
Posts: 123
flashF1 has a lot of promise if they can keep it on the circuit!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Andydickens
Unusual for me to say this, but I disagree with you here, K-B. I think in the history of F1, there are several drivers who deserved the F1 WDC more than the guy who ended up winning it. Sure, the drivers who actually picked up the WDC were extremely talented drivers too, but the dice rolled their way a bit more than for the other guy who may have been quicker, scored more poles etc, but who was ultimately let down by bad luck / reliability issues.

Provide examples please!
flashF1 is offline  
Quote
Old 6 Nov 2005, 12:11 (Ref:1453322)   #31
SpawnyWhippet
Veteran
 
SpawnyWhippet's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
United Kingdom
Singapore
Posts: 730
SpawnyWhippet has a lot of promise if they can keep it on the circuit!
Kimi in 2003, 2005 is the first to spring to mind, Mansell several times around 1990. A few others will pop up when I have had a few less beers!
SpawnyWhippet is offline  
__________________
"Centipede: An ant built to government specifications"
Quote
Old 6 Nov 2005, 13:18 (Ref:1453345)   #32
flashF1
Racer
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Canada
Canada
Posts: 123
flashF1 has a lot of promise if they can keep it on the circuit!
Kimi in 2003? How's that, 1994 comes to mind. In 2005 Kimi didn't have a consistent car. Wait Kimi is so good but his car let him down. Have another beer mate, machine first as I have argued with you.
flashF1 is offline  
Quote
Old 6 Nov 2005, 14:07 (Ref:1453354)   #33
davyboy
Veteran
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 6,986
davyboy will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famedavyboy will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famedavyboy will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famedavyboy will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famedavyboy will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famedavyboy will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famedavyboy will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famedavyboy will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Fame
This thread looks like its looping round in circles a bit. The concept of justice does not exist in sport, particularly not in motor-sport. Therefore, it follows that the idea of somebody DESERVING to win a championship really doesn't make sense at all. The person who won it, won it. That's it. We can hypothesize for ever on what might have been if circumstances were otherwise, but they weren't. What may be better to do on this thread here is to talk about who we would have liked to have won and why.
davyboy is offline  
Quote
Old 6 Nov 2005, 15:34 (Ref:1453406)   #34
Bononi
Race Official
20KPINAL
 
Bononi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 1999
Location:
Deep in the Chaos Nation's countryside
Posts: 21,606
Bononi will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameBononi will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameBononi will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameBononi will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameBononi will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameBononi will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameBononi will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameBononi will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameBononi will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameBononi will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Fame
Let's not miss the point.

Every WDC deserved the title, and the merits of it it's not the subject of this thread. The subject is that the efforts of other driver could have made him the champion, and why not he was.
I found this one valid, because, in some years, all you have to look is at the statistics and who took the crown. The losers, even almost there, are forgotten.

BUT...

If anyone comes and say that the driver X was champion because of lucky and the driver Y deserved what the other took, is then out of context, and won't be allowed.

Luck is when opportunity meets preparation.

When Mika Hakkinen lost his win at spain (I think, ?!?) at the last lap, because a car failure, and TGF was right behind him, it was because he was prepared, the car, the team and he opportunity was there. Luck, we all say.
Bononi is offline  
__________________
Show me a man who won't give it to his woman
An' I'll show you somebody who will
Quote
Old 6 Nov 2005, 15:40 (Ref:1453409)   #35
BootsOntheSide
Veteran
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
England
Eastbourne, England
Posts: 13,000
BootsOntheSide should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridBootsOntheSide should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridBootsOntheSide should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridBootsOntheSide should be qualifying in the top 3 on the grid
Michael wasn't "right behind " Mika, he was falling back at a huge rate. In fact, several cars unlapped themselves from Michael in the final laps of the race, whcih resulted in those cars being able to complete the final lap and thus push Mika out of the points. Mika's car didn't reach the finish, so it didn't matter how far behind Michael was (as long as he was 2nd, of course).
BootsOntheSide is offline  
Quote
Old 6 Nov 2005, 15:58 (Ref:1453420)   #36
Bononi
Race Official
20KPINAL
 
Bononi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 1999
Location:
Deep in the Chaos Nation's countryside
Posts: 21,606
Bononi will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameBononi will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameBononi will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameBononi will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameBononi will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameBononi will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameBononi will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameBononi will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameBononi will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameBononi will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Fame
Thanks, to remind me !

See, opportunity met preparation !

so simple boots...
Bononi is offline  
__________________
Show me a man who won't give it to his woman
An' I'll show you somebody who will
Quote
Old 6 Nov 2005, 16:47 (Ref:1453448)   #37
davyboy
Veteran
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 6,986
davyboy will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famedavyboy will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famedavyboy will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famedavyboy will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famedavyboy will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famedavyboy will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famedavyboy will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famedavyboy will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Fame
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bononi
If anyone comes and say that the driver X was champion because of lucky and the driver Y deserved what the other took, is then out of context, and won't be allowed.
Can you explain a little more on what you mean here.
davyboy is offline  
Quote
Old 6 Nov 2005, 17:09 (Ref:1453455)   #38
Bononi
Race Official
20KPINAL
 
Bononi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 1999
Location:
Deep in the Chaos Nation's countryside
Posts: 21,606
Bononi will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameBononi will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameBononi will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameBononi will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameBononi will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameBononi will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameBononi will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameBononi will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameBononi will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameBononi will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Fame
Quote:
Originally Posted by davyboy
Can you explain a little more on what you mean here.
refer to my post : http://tentenths.com/forum/showthrea...99#post1450499

To put simply : "Lucky" is not an option to debate.
Bononi is offline  
__________________
Show me a man who won't give it to his woman
An' I'll show you somebody who will
Quote
Old 6 Nov 2005, 20:22 (Ref:1453561)   #39
Dutton
Veteran
 
Dutton's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
United Nations
Not Much North of Montana
Posts: 6,760
Dutton has a real shot at the podium!Dutton has a real shot at the podium!Dutton has a real shot at the podium!Dutton has a real shot at the podium!
Quote:
Originally Posted by BootsOntheSide
In fact, several cars unlapped themselves from Michael in the final laps of the race, whcih resulted in those cars being able to complete the final lap and thus push Mika out of the points.
Well, ultimately, they were able to push Mika out of the points because Mika didn't finish the race.
Dutton is offline  
Quote
Old 6 Nov 2005, 21:22 (Ref:1453629)   #40
safc_fan89
Veteran
 
safc_fan89's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 1,936
safc_fan89 should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridsafc_fan89 should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Jacques Villeneuve's championship puzzles me after the 8 seasons he's raced after that win. I'm not sure he deserved his win in 1997 because he gained a few wins because of other drivers' mechanical woes (Hill and Hakkinen spring to mind), but I wouldn't say M Schumacher deserved it after their infamous coming-together, although some of his drives that year were typically superb. But apart from 1997, I don't recall any driver winning the championship that didn't deserve to. You win by getting the most points. You can't fluke a championship win, it requires great skill.
safc_fan89 is offline  
Quote
Old 6 Nov 2005, 21:28 (Ref:1453641)   #41
TheNewBob
Veteran
 
TheNewBob's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
England
Lincs, UK
Posts: 2,555
TheNewBob should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridTheNewBob should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
Didn't always used to be *completely* down to getting the most points - wonder what the championships today would have looked like if we still had the "best 12 results count" style of rules...
TheNewBob is offline  
Quote
Old 6 Nov 2005, 21:47 (Ref:1453668)   #42
safc_fan89
Veteran
 
safc_fan89's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 1,936
safc_fan89 should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridsafc_fan89 should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Getting the most points based on the rules then.

I never did see the point in the 'best 11 scores' system. No doubt there is a logical reason though.
safc_fan89 is offline  
Quote
Old 6 Nov 2005, 23:01 (Ref:1453740)   #43
Adam43
14th
1% Club
 
Adam43's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
European Union
New Orleans
Posts: 42,422
Adam43 is the undisputed Champion of the World!Adam43 is the undisputed Champion of the World!Adam43 is the undisputed Champion of the World!Adam43 is the undisputed Champion of the World!Adam43 is the undisputed Champion of the World!Adam43 is the undisputed Champion of the World!Adam43 is the undisputed Champion of the World!Adam43 is the undisputed Champion of the World!Adam43 is the undisputed Champion of the World!Adam43 is the undisputed Champion of the World!Adam43 is the undisputed Champion of the World!
The reason is that is encourages drivers to go for it and it can also factors out some reliability issues that may not be a driver's fault.
Adam43 is offline  
__________________
Seriously not taking motorsport too seriously.
Quote
Old 6 Nov 2005, 23:33 (Ref:1453758)   #44
Dutton
Veteran
 
Dutton's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
United Nations
Not Much North of Montana
Posts: 6,760
Dutton has a real shot at the podium!Dutton has a real shot at the podium!Dutton has a real shot at the podium!Dutton has a real shot at the podium!
Sadly, though, it can also, in effect, punish high reliaiblity and consistent finishing. If Driver X has finished more regularly than Driver Y, but when each has finished each has always scored points... Well, it can mean Driver X actively loses points to Driver Y as a result of finishing more races than Driver Y.

That seems a bit tight; but, of course, people willingly take part under said rules so there can never be any complaints about the results.
Dutton is offline  
Quote
Old 7 Nov 2005, 03:44 (Ref:1453831)   #45
SpawnyWhippet
Veteran
 
SpawnyWhippet's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
United Kingdom
Singapore
Posts: 730
SpawnyWhippet has a lot of promise if they can keep it on the circuit!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dutton
That seems a bit tight; but, of course, people willingly take part under said rules so there can never be any complaints about the results.
I see your point, but it is possible to take part in a championship and not agree with all the rules. A bit like an anti-war protestor voting for Tony Blair because he agrees with most of his policies, except the one where dear old Tony starts lobbing bombs at Iraqis.
SpawnyWhippet is offline  
__________________
"Centipede: An ant built to government specifications"
Quote
Old 7 Nov 2005, 05:01 (Ref:1453850)   #46
Trev Campbell
Veteran
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 741
Trev Campbell should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridTrev Campbell should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
1976 - Niki Lauda
1981 - Alan Jones
1982 - Gilles Villeneuve
1983 - Gilles Villeneuve
1984 - Alain Prost
1986 - Nigel Mansell
1987 - Nigel Mansell
1988 - Alain Prost
1989 - Ayrton Senna
1990 - Alain Prost
1993 - Ayrton Senna
1994 - Ayrton Senna
Trev Campbell is offline  
__________________
'Son, when you participate in sporthing events, it's not whether you win or lose... it's how drunk you get.' Homer J Simpson.
Quote
Old 7 Nov 2005, 17:07 (Ref:1454376)   #47
chunterer
Race Official
Veteran
 
chunterer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location:
Down the end of my road
Posts: 15,697
chunterer is going for a new world record!chunterer is going for a new world record!chunterer is going for a new world record!chunterer is going for a new world record!chunterer is going for a new world record!chunterer is going for a new world record!chunterer is going for a new world record!
This has continued to develop quite nicely ladies and gentleman.

Thank you Bononi for continuing to keep a tight rein on postings, and on the whole there's some extra points that have been raised that i hadn't originally considered.

I would like to say, and i'm sorry if it's already been said - that the thread is a good opportunity to study the form guide of a given season in order to judghe who ought to have won the title.

I certainly don't want to take anything away from any of the WDC's, but there are certain cases where the quickest car/driver didm't win the title when he/they really ought to have

Or putting it another way, some drivers won the title by being a bit more canny than their chief rival/s, or their equipment proved to be fairly bulletproof so that in races where one or 2 guys were quicker they either won through greater reliability, or, they were consistent enough to finish strongly and in the points to maintain a points haul etc...

I think 2 good examples of this are 2003, where Schuey realised at about a third of the way through the season that he didn't have the package (namely tyres) to win all the time, so he set about finishing as strongly as he could. I would say on balance that Montoya should've won it - he had the car and the pace for most of the season and Kimi perhaps to a lesser degree could've won it judging by what he did in a car not quite on the pace?

The quickest guy that year wasn't Schuey but he did what he had to to take the crown ( i bet he thought he wasn't going to do it thoiugh!!)

The second example i would use that immediately springs to mind is 1983.

For my money the title was Prost's to lose ( and he did!) The Renaut was a good enough car and Prost was damn good all the year through but near the end ofthe season, BMW found something extra for Piquet and he 'stole' it way from Alain. (i must buy the vid actually as from memoery it was a close race, if not quite as good as the previoss 2 years?)

BTW Trev, your list i pretty much agree with but i have this sneaking suspicion that after those early races, Ayrton would have found the deficit too much for him to make up in '94 -he would have tried very hard but i think he would have gone off a lot trying ( it would have been a bit like this year where Kimi had no option but to go for broke to make the difference up on Alonso, and Schu would finisehd second or third most of the time anyway)

However, that isn't taking into account the points su#ystem at the time as Dutton and Dickens have touched on, or Schuey's DQ's from several races that year!!
chunterer is offline  
__________________
"Double Kidney Guv'nah?"
"No thanks George they're still wavin a white flag!"
Quote
Old 7 Nov 2005, 17:33 (Ref:1454409)   #48
Kicking-back
Registered User
Veteran
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 16,661
Kicking-back should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridKicking-back should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
Quote:
Originally Posted by chunterer
The second example i would use that immediately springs to mind is 1983.

For my money the title was Prost's to lose ( and he did!) The Renaut was a good enough car and Prost was damn good all the year through but near the end ofthe season, BMW found something extra for Piquet and he 'stole' it way from Alain. (i must buy the vid actually as from memoery it was a close race, if not quite as good as the previoss 2 years?)

If Alain hadn't done what he did on the morning of the Dutch Grand Prix, a whole series of events which resulted in him not winning the 1983 title may not have happened
Kicking-back is offline  
Quote
Old 7 Nov 2005, 18:21 (Ref:1454465)   #49
TheNewBob
Veteran
 
TheNewBob's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
England
Lincs, UK
Posts: 2,555
TheNewBob should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridTheNewBob should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
1994 - had the tragedies at Imola not happened, then it would have played out differently - weather or not a Senna comeback would have forced Benetton to up their game or have some more errors and DSQ's, we'll never know, but can only speculate...
TheNewBob is offline  
Quote
Old 7 Nov 2005, 21:34 (Ref:1454664)   #50
Trev Campbell
Veteran
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 741
Trev Campbell should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridTrev Campbell should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
One thing I've always thought is that if Senna was still alive for 1994, the penalties handed down to Schumacher in 1994 would not have been as severe as they were. I think it was done to tighten up the championship, as Schumacher was romping away with the title, the last thing the FIA/Bernie needed was a one sided contest. People would have turned away in droves with a boring championship and the death of Senna.
Trev Campbell is offline  
__________________
'Son, when you participate in sporthing events, it's not whether you win or lose... it's how drunk you get.' Homer J Simpson.
Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
1980 McLaren M30 Dunzer Motorsport History 40 7 Nov 2007 22:05
[DVD/Video] F1 1980 Knowlesy Armchair Enthusiast 8 13 Jun 2003 09:04
Which of these drivers do you think should've been better? Minardi4eva Formula One 11 13 Jan 2003 20:35
1980 racer69 Formula One 2 27 Dec 2001 03:15


All times are GMT. The time now is 13:05.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Original Website Copyright © 1998-2003 Craig Antil. All Rights Reserved.
Ten-Tenths Motorsport Forums Copyright © 2004-2021 Royalridge Computing. All Rights Reserved.
Ten-Tenths Motorsport Forums Copyright © 2021-2022 Grant MacDonald. All Rights Reserved.