IMSA IMSA : 2019

[MaskedRacer]

In terms of pace, the DPI cars will be very comparable to LMP1 non hybrid now. Too bad there will be no similar tracks to compare them on.

[Akrapovic]

Originally Posted by MaskedRacer

In terms of pace, the DPI cars will be very comparable to LMP1 non hybrid now. Too bad there will be no similar tracks to compare them on.

Sebring 2019?

[carbsmith]

They are not going to gain 6s/lap from different BoP

[TF110]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

It's not really like DP v LMP2 from before given those cars were completely different formats and delivered their performance in ways that were completely incompatible. This is more like LMP2a v LMP2b. And now all you'll see is the fastest cars are slowed down to run at the Mazdas pace - and the Mazda is running at the fastest pace it can without blowing itself up at all times. So in no way this any different to "hamstringing a car artificially". It's still a BoP class, you've just changed which car you're BoPing it against.

It shouldn't be aligned with LMP1 (which would involve hamstringing a type of car to artificially meet another type of car...) because the LMP1 doesn't allow factory involvement without a hybrid system. I doubt IMSA would do it, and there's no chance the ACO would let them near an ACO event. Too much pride for that one.

Still don't see what positive it achieves, other than slightly fastest lap times. Smaller classes, at a time when we're looking at losing a couple of cars.

Are ESM continuing? Are SoDing continuing? Are we likely to see the LMP2 grow?

Don't believe that. It is like DP vs P2 because one class is faster than the other, but it's slowed down to equal the other. That's the point. You can argue the exacts but in general terms it's basically the same thing happening. Lmp2 can't go faster mechanically unless you change the tires. DPi can go faster too with the better tires, but they can also go faster with less restrictions on the engine, less restrictions on aero, less restrictions on weight. If Mazda doesn't improve, that's on them. They'll get breaks to meet the class leader from the information we heard. Not the other way around. How heavy is the Caddy? 940, 950kg? The Penske Acura's could stand to lose some weight too and that engine has plenty to give like the Cadillacs.

As for class count, it doesn't look like many lmp2's are full time or going to be full time anyway. You seemingly see cars withdrawn every other race. The excuse that 'faster laps' is the only good reason for separating the classes is untrue. They need to keep their players happy. I don't know if this decision does that for everyone, but it sounds like it does for the majority of them.

[carbsmith]

LMP2 is 930kg and the DPi engine installs (besides maybe Mazda) are significantly heavier, they're running heavy for a reason. We know for sure the Nissan is way overweight.

[TF110]

Originally Posted by carbsmith

LMP2 is 930kg and the DPi engine installs (besides maybe Mazda) are significantly heavier, they're running heavy for a reason. We know for sure the Nissan is way overweight.

Well, we do know the Oreca is ballasted heavily just to meet 930kg. The Nissan may be overweight. But is it in terms of having to remove ballast? I don't recall seeing the team say they were running heavier than the required minimum weight. Any links to that? The Mazda has received numerous weight breaks, and I think is at 915 or 920kg currently. Not sure about the Caddy. But I doubt they would have trouble running under 930kg if even needed. All of them can get faster. That's not the question imo. The question is how fast are they going to make the class so they're ahead of lmp2 without touching p2? That's what I'm wondering.

[carbsmith]

https://sportscar365.com/imsa/iwsc/d...igier-js-p217/

While the JS P217 carries ballast to meet the 930kg minimum weight, Dumas admitted the Nissan DPi is currently slightly overweight.

“It was a challenge but of course at the moment we have something to learn,” he said. “We have to work on our side and especially on NISMO’s side to get a competitive weight.

“When you talk about a 50-kilo difference, especially on the rear, and when you look at the engine, the weight is at the worst place. It’s very high. So, the weight distribution is so different.

If you look at the Nissan particularly, they realistically can't run lighter than the LMP2, they don't have the reliability to run a lot more power than the Gibson, and the weight distribution and aerodynamics are compromised by the stock block engine, so it's very hard to see how they can lap meaningfully faster.

If the Mazda is already running 15kg underweight and slower than an LMP2 there's not much left in there either.

I seriously doubt the Honda engine is lighter than the Nissan considering its origin. It's plausible because it's based on an LMP1 chassis but we don't know if the ORECA is running any more ballast than the Ligier normally.


Splitting LMP2 and DPi is like splitting up GTE because the Aston Martin is holding back the Ford. Except the difference in potential between a Vantage GTE and Ford GTE was actually way bigger than in IMSA P.

[Akrapovic]

Have to admit, I'm lost on this. The only argument I see for splitting them up is that the DPis will no longer be restricted to a slower class, and therefore faster. How do we measure faster? By lap time. But it's not about lap time? So...what's it about then? Not being slowed down? How do we measure that? By...lap time?

The cars will be slowed down. Just to the slowest DPi, rather than LMP2. So you still won't see them running at full pace. BoP doesn't work by picking the fastest car and BoPing everyone up. That makes the assumption half the weight of a car is ballast, the car has a huge fuel tank to play with, and the engine is well within its limits. If you let the Caddy (and probably Acura) run at full speed, there is absolutely no way you'll get the Nissan and Mazda up to that speed. The Nissan doesn't have the additional weight to knock off, the Mazda is stuck with the worst chassis, and an engine that blows up. You have to slow down cars in BoP - that's how every series does it.

So you could then say it's on the manufacturers. That's fine. So now it's a BoP'd development class. So you're balancing cars, but making them spend a lot of money for it to happen. That'll go down well.

As for class count, not sure what the reference to part time entries in LMP2 is about. None of the current IMSA cars are part time. There's possible question marks floating over Performance Tech given recent issues, but DPi also has those with SoD and ESM.

"Seemingly see cars withdrawn every other race" simply isn't true for LMP2. Actually lost as many DPis as we have LMP2.

They need to keep the biggest players happy. Well Rodger has been moaning about BoP before he even lodged an entry. So the only way you'll get a happy Rodger is get rid of BoP so he can outspend everyone else.

We're losing cars, we're upping costs, and we're splitting a class into 2 very small classes. Because..not lap time.

There will probably be a huge jump in lap time given the move to Michelin tyres. How much is tyres and how much is new BoP is down to how much improvement LMP2 makes over this year.

[Articus]

I think it's much simpler than this. The manufacturers spend "big bucks" to be there in a Bop'd class, so they don't want privateers winning overall. IMSA caved, a shame, but it is what it is.

The proto grid is going to shrink massively at Daytona and Sebring. Nissan, Cadillac, Mazda, or Acura have been given exclusive rights to overall victory. Not good or bad, but just losing the opportunity for crossover teams...I suppose it's about being loyal to the full season DPi manufacturers.

[joeb]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

Have to admit, I'm lost on this. The only argument I see for splitting them up is that the DPis will no longer be restricted to a slower class, and therefore faster. How do we measure faster? By lap time. But it's not about lap time? So...what's it about then? Not being slowed down? How do we measure that? By...lap time?

The cars will be slowed down. Just to the slowest DPi, rather than LMP2. So you still won't see them running at full pace. BoP doesn't work by picking the fastest car and BoPing everyone up. That makes the assumption half the weight of a car is ballast, the car has a huge fuel tank to play with, and the engine is well within its limits. If you let the Caddy (and probably Acura) run at full speed, there is absolutely no way you'll get the Nissan and Mazda up to that speed. The Nissan doesn't have the additional weight to knock off, the Mazda is stuck with the worst chassis, and an engine that blows up. You have to slow down cars in BoP - that's how every series does it.

So you could then say it's on the manufacturers. That's fine. So now it's a BoP'd development class. So you're balancing cars, but making them spend a lot of money for it to happen. That'll go down well.

As for class count, not sure what the reference to part time entries in LMP2 is about. None of the current IMSA cars are part time. There's possible question marks floating over Performance Tech given recent issues, but DPi also has those with SoD and ESM.

"Seemingly see cars withdrawn every other race" simply isn't true for LMP2. Actually lost as many DPis as we have LMP2.

They need to keep the biggest players happy. Well Rodger has been moaning about BoP before he even lodged an entry. So the only way you'll get a happy Rodger is get rid of BoP so he can outspend everyone else.

We're losing cars, we're upping costs, and we're splitting a class into 2 very small classes. Because..not lap time.

There will probably be a huge jump in lap time given the move to Michelin tyres. How much is tyres and how much is new BoP is down to how much improvement LMP2 makes over this year.

Originally Posted by Articus

I think it's much simpler than this. The manufacturers spend "big bucks" to be there in a Bop'd class, so they don't want privateers winning overall. IMSA caved, a shame, but it is what it is.

The proto grid is going to shrink massively at Daytona and Sebring. Nissan, Cadillac, Mazda, or Acura have been given exclusive rights to overall victory...

I think these two posts sum up the issue pretty well. What do they do if there are only three cars on the full season entry list for the P2 class next season? Is the series going to be looking for people to come in? And will they help them with cheaper entry fees or something like that? during the alms days we constantly heard the management talk about who is just on the horizon to bolster the small prototype grids, but we never ended up getting those cars. Will this formula actually draw more people into the P2 or DPI class for that matter?

On the topic of speed, how much faster do we think the DPI cars will actually be? Will they also adjust fuel tank sizes for stint length alteration as the ACO did with lmp1?

[MaskedRacer]

You wonder if the prototypes is following ALMS now. It was great in 2007 and 2008. Then Audi and Penske left. Today its GM and Penske. Funny thing is that in both situations Mazda is kind of a third wheel. Dyson was able to take the Mazda to a championship in 2011. Yes the field was depleted by then it was still a title

I wonder if Mazda can out last GM and Penske in a couple years. He He. Of course IMSA could wipe that chance out and introduce GTP in 2022.

GTP is going to have a trickle down effect, it will render GTLM obsolete. Part of the appeal of GTP is to attract current GTLM/GTE manufacturers. Ford and Aston Marin could bite. Hope the others follow. Imagine the concept of the Corvette DP returning but this time being run by Pratt & Miller in its velocity yellow glory. Or Porsche GT1 type car with that loud screaming engine they currently run. Never seen a closed topped Ferrari proto either

[TF110]

How many lmp2's run the whole season right now? How many are contending for the title? These entries hinge on a wealthy individual or a lot of backing for a driver which may or may not be quick enough to stay near the front. What do you think DPi is doing right now? They're running at a percentage of their capabilities to meet a team or teams which have a global lmp2 and a mostly pro-am driver lineup. So GM teams, Mazda, Nissan (kinda) and Penske invest in a car, pro drivers, development, new engine, new suspension, new electronics, new bodywork etc. just to be slowed down to a pro-am formula. Then they aren't rewarded for their efforts and money invested because they have to make due with a partially gimped car because lmp2 has to be able to win too. See how long you have those entries willing to spend extra just to be the same speed of some spec car that you can buy for a lot cheaper and run as-is.

What people need to understand is that there are those in favor of this split because of things like that. It's not just lap time. It's the extra effort put in by these guys not even rewarded in their eyes. It's IMSA's fault they didn't do this in the first place. But that's not the point any longer. I don't think arguing for or against this split is the point anymore either. Because it's happening and there's nothing we can do or say that stops it. So we might as well just get used to it and look forward to how this plays out in terms of things like entries, like Joeb said.

[Akrapovic]

There are 4 LMP2s in the full season. CORE site 4th in the Teams Championship, ahead of both Acura. #99 Red Dragon is 7th, ahead of both Mazdas. #85 Banana Boat is 9th, ahead of one Mazda and both ESM. AFS/PR1 are 10th, ahead of both ESM. The Cadillacs have a 1-2-3, but Core are within striking distance, and the #99 is just within it too. #85 is too far back. So realistically, probably the top 7 are title contenders I guess. That's 5 DPis (in 3 teams) and 2 LMPs (in 2 teams). Not sure what that says or doesn't say, but you did ask.

The comment regarding a team withdrawing every other race simply isn't true. We've lost Performance Tech for the second time, but we've also lost the SoD DPi, and an ESM car once too. Again, don't know what that proves.

Anyway, yeah, I know exactly what you're saying. I get it. Manufacturers don't want to spend a lot of money to lose. What's kinda being ignored is that this is a BoP class. Now whether you BoP those cars to an LMP2, an LMP1 or a Mini Cooper, the result is the same - money is being spent on performance, which will be removed in a BoP change. There can only be one winner, so that means everyone else spends money to lose. Take the LMP2s out of the equation the argument is literally identical. "Why should we get slowed down when we develop something good?". Rodger was beating this drum before Penske even entered Road Atlanta last year.

So what does this solve? Absolutely nothing. The same problems still exist, we just have a different yardstick. As long as it's a BoP class, this is what you get.

So choose what you want - a development class where teams can build a better product. Or a BoP class, where you build it and IMSA balances you. What you can't do is both - because then money gets spent to go, quite literally, nowhere. Now if IMSA said they weren't going to BoP the cars, then cool, I get it, but that isn't what they've said.

Rodger wants to outspend everyone. Not that that's a criticism - that's part of the game. So this argument of being held back is going to continue on without change, just with higher operating costs. Just do a search for "LMP2" and insert "Mazda" or "Nissan" for who they are complaining is the yardstick - that's if the Nissan continues since Nissan barely even acknowledge it in their media releases.

[chernaudi]

IMSA could've avoided this (if they wanted to) in the first place if they more strictly homolgated the DPI cars. Allowing them development has lead to where it became either restrict the DPIs to an almost insane level, or split the classes to get DPI back to their original performance specs.

[FormulaFox]

Originally Posted by Articus

The proto grid is going to shrink massively at Daytona and Sebring. Nissan, Cadillac, Mazda, or Acura have been given exclusive rights to overall victory.

Still not gonna keep Nissan around if ESM can't find a high-paying sponsor.

[Juntos]

Originally Posted by FormulaFox

Still not gonna keep Nissan around if ESM can't find a high-paying sponsor.

Where is Nissan North America when you need them?

[skycafe]

Originally Posted by chernaudi

IMSA could've avoided this (if they wanted to) in the first place if they more strictly homolgated the DPI cars. Allowing them development has lead to where it became either restrict the DPIs to an almost insane level, or split the classes to get DPI back to their original performance specs.

Do you think Penske would have come in if they could not develop a car? Same for Joest.

I think it is the same with the manufacturers. They want stability which will allow them to establish and run to a budget. But they are going to want a return on that investment or they aren't going to bother. They also are not going to be happy spending mega funds and getting beaten by people that are not spending at that level.

[chernaudi]

Then it can also be argued why have BOP if you're bound to get slowed to a level of someone else who is unable or unwilling to develop their cars, which takes financial and technical resources?

It's like arguing why Audi were faster than everyone else in the R8 days, or Toyota is now. 1-2 details in isolation probably won't mean much, but when you add a bunch of them up, you can get a much faster car. But especially now, where it seems like every major revolutionary or even evolutionary stone has been turned, you do start to get into diminishing returns--more money has to be spent for more marginal gains.

This is what I see as the problem. IMSA said all along, until now, the DPIs would be balanced against the best LMP2. But in so doing, they allowed the DPIs development, while LMP2s would be held to ACO specs. So there's the problem as I see it. All along, they either should've left DPI unteathered, or made it clear that BOP would be done to hold them to approx. the same performance as the best LMP2s, and hence make major development a useless proposition.

[TzeiTzei]

I just don't see the point in all this. Having less cars fighting for overall victory surely isn't the target for any racing series.

[FormulaFox]

This idea that BoP = no development really needs to end. I've said it before, I'll say it again... BoP does NOT mean there's no development. If it did, GT3 cars wouldn't be anywhere near the level they are.

BoP means you're limited down to the performance of other cars, but it doesn't mean you can't make tweaks to the car, engine, etc. While many BoP series forbid in-season development, that's separate from BoP - even open championships sometimes forbid in-season development.

Just as much some engineers loathe being under the thumb of BoP, others revel in the challenge of finding ways to overcome the limitations set by BoP.

[Akrapovic]

Comparing these to GT3 cars doesn't work since the vast majority of GT3 development is spent on servicing, repairability, drivability and accessibility, as well as customer support programs. DPis aren't designed with this in mind.

[MaskedRacer]

Ok guys listen good:

CORE = Porsche DPI baby! Stick a 911 RSR engine in there. Change the headlights of the Oreca to look Porsche'ish. Have 2 cars. One with the factory livery and the other with the traditional CORE colors. The CORE car can still be Braun, Duval, Dumas, and Bennett. The other can be have Tandy, Bamber, and Lotterer

Can you dig that! I am not the biggest prototype guy. Much more of a GT fan, but to see a concept like this happen would be huge. Hopefully they are going to tackle this idea now after 2 overall wins in a row.

[Akrapovic]

Originally Posted by MaskedRacer

Ok guys listen good:

CORE = Porsche DPI baby! Stick a 911 RSR engine in there. Change the headlights of the Oreca to look Porsche'ish. Have 2 cars. One with the factory livery and the other with the traditional CORE colors. The CORE car can still be Braun, Duval, Dumas, and Bennett. The other can be have Tandy, Bamber, and Lotterer

Can you dig that! I am not the biggest prototype guy. Much more of a GT fan, but to see a concept like this happen would be huge. Hopefully they are going to tackle this idea now after 2 overall wins in a row.

I think I love you.

[Articus]

If Ford wanted to enter DPI, what chassis manufacturer would they use? It was luck that

Nissan = Ligier
Mazda = Riley
Cadillac = Dallara
Acura = Oreca

Considering the relationship with multimatic, would Ford want to use the poor Riley platform?

[Tique]

The problem, I think, is that Nissan/Ligier and Mazda/Multimatic doesn't have much potential left even with a nicer BOP for them. So the IMSA argument stating that we will have faster DPi doens't stand in my eyes. It will result with a prototype class with Cadillac and Acura plying for the victory. Strange decision...