2003 will be a make or break year for both Button and Heidfeld

Yoong Montoya · 9 Jul 2002, 19:02 (Ref:330427)

It could decide whether they go on to be World Champions or 'might-have-beens'.

Firstly, Button. I hope he keeps his Renault seat for next year because Williams will probably not want him back. If he gets kicked out of Renault, the only good alternative I can see is joining Toyota. Jaguar and BAR both lack stability, and stability is everything in F1 these days.

Next, Heidfeld. If Coulthard does get kicked out of McLaren, Heidfeld could become Raikkonen's partner there. This would be the best scenario he could hope for. However, if Coulthard is kept on for next year, Heidfeld would have to make a choice between staying at Sauber for a third year or joining Toyota on a long term contract. I think if McLaren don't take Heidfeld, Toyota is the only alternative, as Sauber will never win races unless they get a works engine deal.

I like both of these drivers, and it would be a great injustice if they were to both just fizzle out and end up driving touring cars or something.

McLaren could have a tough choice between Coulthard and Heidfeld to partner Raikkonen next year. If they make the wrong decision, they could end up sinking further down the grid, taking Raikkonen down with them

Sato san · 9 Jul 2002, 19:41 (Ref:330465)

Button needs a podium at least this year , other wise if he goes to Jaguar next year , he has got the risk of becoming another Johnny Herbert ( loads of talent , but wrong team at the wrong time ).

If Jenson went another 2 or 3 years with a lesser team and couldnt acheive a poduim , he's gonna miss the boat through no fault of his own. So yes , to a point , next year is a bit of a make or break year.

AS for Nick , he really needs something good next year , to avoid getting overlooked by the younger ones.

Mr V · 9 Jul 2002, 19:47 (Ref:330479)

Nick should start worrying if nothing is sorted out this season imo! After being overlooked by McLaren last year, then not totally dominating Massa could be a concern!

I'm amazed that McLaren keep sticking with DC....Nick deserves that seat, but if it doesn't happen next season, it never will imo!

f1manoz · 10 Jul 2002, 00:03 (Ref:330643)

I am still hoping that Nick will get the McLaren seat as he has shown faith in the team by not taking any other contract up until this point in time. He certainly is deserving of a contract, and SHOULD have been picked last year, but like usual politics screws a great driver out of a great ride. But no use crying over spilt milk now is there.......

If he doesn't get the McLaren ride, another year at Sauber won't do as it will just cloud him in anonimity, so going to Toyota would be the best option.

Mania · 10 Jul 2002, 10:03 (Ref:330902)

Quote:

Originally posted by mr v

I'm amazed that McLaren keep sticking with DC....Nick deserves that seat, but if it doesn't happen next season, it never will imo!

Agreed! DC seems to make a last-minute desperate lunge for the seat whenever things are looking bad for him - and he`s been able to hang on to the seat for dear life for too long in my book.

But as far as Heidfeld is concerned - he really has two options - Mclaren or Toyota. Toyota have shown an interest in him but if Nick continues to court Mercedes then Toyota may just look elsewhere. I think Heidfeld should play his cards close to his chest - keep his mouth shut - and see who comes to him first. If Toyota make him an offer, he should sign with them and not hold out for Mercedes. Toyota are their way up and have everything it takes to be a top team. If he signs with them and eventually wins for them, then that will count for a heck of a lot more than one more win for Mclaren Mercedes.

Button on the other hand, is probably going to Jag. Williams are locked till 2004 by which point both Ralf and Juan would have moved on to greener pastures making an opening for Jenson - till then I dont see him sqeezing his way into the team, unless we have 3 car teams that is.

Mr V · 10 Jul 2002, 14:44 (Ref:331135)

Quote:

Originally posted by Mania

If Toyota make him an offer, he should sign with them and not hold out for Mercedes.

Do McLaren/Merc own Nicks contract? If Toyota come knocking maybe Ron won't let him go! Unless there are things going on about that we don't know (highly likely) it's only fair that Ron tell Nick whats in store for him, and not keep dangling the carrot!

Sato san · 10 Jul 2002, 14:51 (Ref:331138)

im sure that Ron does have rights to nicks services , but i think it runs out at the end of 2003 .but im not 100% on that one.

f1manoz · 11 Jul 2002, 07:00 (Ref:331550)

From everything that I've read Nick is sick of waiting around for McLaren to come knocking and has stated that he will take any good offer that comes, particularly if it comes from a team like Toyota.

DNQ · 11 Jul 2002, 07:41 (Ref:331563)

Nick Heidfeld:
Perhaps a year another year at Sauber will be bad - the end of 2001 really was the year he deserved a contract, but for some ungodly reason, the world got caught up in Kimi hype, despite Nick being the superior driver. This year, Sauber has not had as much success, due to Renault and Williams being far stronger, taking points here and there. A revitalised Arrows and Toyota too have taken the odd place that Sauber normally would have taken.

Jenson Button:
Is Jenson THAT good? Williams 2000. Button and Schumacher. Who was better? Ralf. Granted, it was Jenson's rookie year, and he was super young, but in the past, the likes of Rodriguez, Raikkonen, Alonso and others have matched or almost matched their teammates on debut.
Now, considering I believe Ralf is better that Button, and I've never really rated Ralf that highly. That said, both Jenson and Ralf are very competent, but nothing special. Jenson is in a team where he has, unlike Nick been more often or not in the top half of the grid, despite driving no better than Heidfeld. Everyone will notice Jenson, everyone will ingore Nick, Button will be in a Jag next year, Nick will be in a Sauber...again.

Valve Bounce · 11 Jul 2002, 09:46 (Ref:331652)

Latest report is that Jenson may have to accept a huge 2 million quid pay cut to stay with Renault. At just 1 million quid his salary is not that great in comparison with other F1 drivers, but it is a chance to stay with a team which obviously has podium aspirations next year. I hope he calls Flav's bluff and accept the deal. If he continues to do well for the rest of this year, and then does well next year, his stocks will rise for sure.

Valve[img]http://www.**************************/smilies/bouncy.gif[/img]

Mr V · 11 Jul 2002, 15:05 (Ref:331920)

Quote:

Originally posted by DNQ
Nick Heidfeld:
the world got caught up in Kimi hype, despite Nick being the superior driver. This year, Sauber has not had as much success, due to Renault and Williams being far stronger, taking points here and there.

The Williams has always been stronger! Nicks problem is that he hasn't dominated Massa, dispite being more experienced, much the same as he couldn't dominate Kimi, dispite the Finn only having 23 races experience, thats why Kimi's at McLaren and Nicks still at Sauber and if he's not careful he'll still be there when Massa's hired by someone else!

shiny side up! · 11 Jul 2002, 15:58 (Ref:331966)

Why is it a necessity to replace Coulthard? If the Merc engine and McChassis are strong next year, what could be better than a young a$$ kicker (Kimi) and one of the most solid drivers in F1 (DC)? DC may be old hat at McL, but He is fast, reliable, and a better shot at the driver's championship than Heidfeld, and probably even Button...

BootsOntheSide · 11 Jul 2002, 16:42 (Ref:331983)

Nick outpaces a rookie Raikkonen and yet Kimi ends up at McLaren and Nick gets stuck at Sauber, because he didn't outpace him enough.

Ralf struggles to match rookies two seasons in a row, and gets regarded by Frank as one of the best drivers around, and somehow more worthy of a drive than the youngsters in question.

Jenson recovers from the performance crisis of 2001, outdoes the highly rated Trulli, and yet finds himself facing a make or break year where he could end up in a poor car.

Fisichella outpaces (often by miles) Button, Wurz, Sato and Ralf, all extremely highly rated when faced with the Fizz. One has his career in ruins, two are staring towards the barrel, one has every cahnce of winning the 2003 title.

Formula 1 is certainly a fickle and strange master

Mekola · 13 Jul 2002, 01:38 (Ref:333053)

Quote:

Originally posted by DNQ
... Granted, it was Jenson's rookie year, and he was super young, but in the past, the likes of Rodriguez, Raikkonen, Alonso and others have matched or almost matched their teammates on debut.

Rodriguez? Did you mean the Mexican brothers?

f1manoz · 13 Jul 2002, 02:01 (Ref:333070)

Nick HAS outpaced both his team-mates consistently yet people think he's not doing good enough. I don't get it myself......:confused:

Are you expecting gaps of 1 second in qualifying and him to lap his team-mate??????

DNQ · 13 Jul 2002, 02:14 (Ref:333076)

Quote:

Originally posted by Mekola
Rodriguez? Did you mean the Mexican brothers?

Indeed I did.

Jukebox · 13 Jul 2002, 02:24 (Ref:333085)

Raikonnen was lucky because Mika preffered him because of his nationality and Ron respected Mika so much that he followed his advice. The fact that Ferrari wanted Raikonnen for the 2003 season makes things more complicated for Heidfeld.

Mr V · 13 Jul 2002, 07:10 (Ref:333125)

Quote:

Originally posted by Jukebox
Raikonnen was lucky ..........Ron respected Mika so much that he followed his advice.......... Ferrari wanted Raikonnen for the 2003

No matter how much Ron respected Mika, he does make up his own mind, as for Ferrari wanting Kimi........ Kimi lucky? if these two giants both want him, it's more than luck, it's the future don't you think?

Jukebox · 15 Jul 2002, 02:59 (Ref:333980)

Quote:

Originally posted by mr v

No matter how much Ron respected Mika, he does make up his own mind, as for Ferrari wanting Kimi........ Kimi lucky? if these two giants both want him, it's more than luck, it's the future don't you think?

There's no doubt that Kimi is the super rookie for the 2001 season but Ferrari did ask him to be with Sauber for another SEASON because you can't just make a decision with just a season and throughout the 2001 season Heideld clearly outqualifies Kimi in qualifying and during races he's always behind.

Mika's commitment to be the menthor for Kimi makes Ron took him.

Mr V · 15 Jul 2002, 20:44 (Ref:334496)

Quote:

Originally posted by Jukebox

Ferrari did ask him to be with Sauber for another SEASON because you can't just make a decision with just a season

Your right Juke, but Ferrari were confident that Kimi would be at Sauber again this season, and would definatly be in Ferrari next year (as opposed to Rubens), Ron Dennis (and Mika) knew that Kimi in a Ferrari would be awesome and were prepared to take the risk of signing him, even with only one seasons experience. But my original point still remains.
if these two giants both want him, it's more than luck, it's the future don't you think?

Jukebox · 16 Jul 2002, 03:38 (Ref:334676)

Quote:

Originally posted by mr v
if these two giants both want him, it's more than luck, it's the future don't you think?

Yes, you were right....they both must have seen something in Kimi that we both don't understand the reason why and racers like them ( including Heidfeld, Massa & Button) will be the probable future champions in F1. But the point is clearly Heidfeld is better then Kimi at that time, surely there must be some politics involved and i'm sure that Mika has got something to do with it.

Kimi has no proven track record prior to his entry to Formula1 and i suspect that Ferrari has got something to do with his debut with Sauber in the first place and the fact that the Macs and Mika knew this makes them want to snatch him. Kimi is just plain lucky and the luckystars were truly shining on him.

Mr V · 16 Jul 2002, 10:16 (Ref:334828)

Quote:

Originally posted by Jukebox

Yes, you were right....they both must have seen something in Kimi that we both don't understand the reason why

I understand entirely, his talent is plainly obvious for everone to see,

which leads me on to your next statement..........

Quote:

Originally posted by Jukebox

Kimi has no proven track record prior to his entry to Formula1

To come into Formula 1 after only 23 previous car races and get as close to Nick, a highly regarded driver of the future, as he did shows massive talent and something both Ferrari and McLaren wanted in their respective futures!

Jukebox · 17 Jul 2002, 02:26 (Ref:335474)

What confuses me is that Kimi is getting the same amount of pay as DC is getting. Obviously DC is better than Kimi with better podium positions than Kimi this season.

Mr V · 17 Jul 2002, 05:54 (Ref:335510)

Quote:

Originally posted by Jukebox
Obviously DC is better than Kimi with better podium positions than Kimi this season.

Whats so obvious about it? Kimi's out qualified DC more often than not, but had more bad reliability this year. It's worth noting that Nearly every time Kimi has had a car failure, he's been in front of Dc when it's happened!

f1manoz · 17 Jul 2002, 10:17 (Ref:335653)

Kimi has proven this year that he was worthy of the seat (can't believe I just said that) while DC has been at the team for 7 years now and achieved not much more than a runners-up spot in the WDC.

Time for another change, and this time Nick should be brought in.

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