Driving standards/ stewarding

[Aysedasi]

Yet another thing that would be open to abuse.....

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by Lancsbreaker

I'd agree that if an engine, and/or a gearbox that were genuinely physically damaged in a collision with (or as a result of) third party contact could be excluded from the cap on numbers of replacement units. Those caused by driver error alone - eg Leclerc's Monaco gearbox issue - should not be excluded, though. However I was a little suspicious that Perez was claiming very soon after the Hungary shunt - which appeard to be a relatively glancing blow from Bottas - that his engine was damaged.......

Originally Posted by Aysedasi

Yet another thing that would be open to abuse.....

Agree that any type of "if damaged in an accident, you get a replacement" is a can of worms and very open to teams playing games.

I would think that if the new engine spec is to make units cheaper and ideally simpler, then I think they should also consider allowing more units to be used during the season. I do understand that more units used in a season may increase the overall cost. But overall, I don't think this is a huge issue to try to fix.

Richard

[Taxi645]

What about this:

-We know the mileage each engine must do to reach the end of the season with three engines.
-The FIA knows (I think?) how many miles each engines has done.

With these to facts one could establish the following possible solution:

The penalty for taking a 4th engine as a result of a crash considered by the FIA as outside your fault is equal the actual mileage of the broken engine/ the average mileage for each of the three engines to reach end of season X the number of places between the last position and the actual qualified position.

So say an engine breaks outside your fault at half the mileage needed for that engine and you quality 4th your grid penalty would be: (20-4) x 0.5 = 8 places grid penalty. So you start at position 12.


Shoot!

P.S. This isn't really about driving standards any more really, should be a different thread.

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by Taxi645

as a result of a crash considered by the FIA as outside your fault

I can imagine the FIA, F1 stewards, etc. would not care to go deeper down any path of assigning "fault". It's more work for them.

Originally Posted by Taxi645

So say an engine breaks outside your fault at half the mileage needed for that engine and you quality 4th your grid penalty would be: (20-4) x 0.5 = 8 places grid penalty. So you start at position 12.

I think you are looking to pro-rate the penalty. And "if" this was deemed a large enough problem to solve, that might be a way to do it. Or you might look to use a graduated penalty.

The FIA already do a phased penalty system, but they do it in reverse (Sporting Regulations 23.3.b). The first time you need to go beyond the base allocation for one of the specific power unit components, it is a 10 place grid penalty. However any subsequent is only a 5 place grid penalty.

I think the argument for that is to make it painful for the first. But if you are in a bad situation (poor reliability of an engine) that instead of kicking a team while they are down, the penalty is somewhat relaxed.

I do wonder if maybe it should work in reverse. The first penalty is less and then any future ones are significant. That gives teams a more "soft" entry into going beyond the specified allocation and also makes having to take a new component due to an accident as being less painful (but still painful). The downside is... if you have reliability issues, it will be VERY painful to continue to replace parts beyond the initial allocation.

Originally Posted by Taxi645

P.S. This isn't really about driving standards any more really, should be a different thread.

Probably a good topic for the "How to fix F1" thread.

Richard

[Aysedasi]

Originally Posted by Richard Casto

Probably a good topic for the "How to fix F1" thread.

Or one for the 'How to break F1 even more' thread.

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by Aysedasi

Or one for the 'How to break F1 even more' thread.

How to (even more) overly complicate F1!

I do think there will (rightly) be some lessons learned after the first full year of the team operating under the new financial constraints. And they planned to make tweaks as they go because they knew they would not get it "just right" out of the gate. So hopefully they adjust as needed and that includes NOT making any knee jerk adjustments (such as IMHO, trying to charge other teams for damages).

Richard

[Casper]

Originally Posted by Adam43

The umpire can bring out a box of six engines that have all done a similar number of laps and they can chose.

That has several problems that I can see and most probably more that I can't.

As teams don't test anymore how does the time get put on the engines

Selecting how much time to put on what engine

Motors get upgraded in normal times, are the latest upgrades applied to the selected motor before it is used

The whole thing is unmanageable IMO and caused by F1 stakeholders and they are all guilty of driving down this road without exception. If low cost motors were used then it would be feasible to remove the motor limits but of course that horse can't be fitted back in the stable it escaped from. I guess stupid decisions years ago has finally come home to bite them hard and they don't like it.

[Adam43]

Originally Posted by Aysedasi

Yet another thing that would be open to abuse.....

It seems again that many fans believe the rule book isn’t complicated enough.

Which leads to

Originally Posted by Aysedasi

Or one for the 'How to break F1 even more' thread.

[Adam43]

Originally Posted by Casper

That has several problems that I can see and most probably more that I can't.

As teams don't test anymore how does the time get put on the engines

Selecting how much time to put on what engine

Motors get upgraded in normal times, are the latest upgrades applied to the selected motor before it is used

I thought I’d perfectly captured all that in my comment. After all it just ain’t cricket.

[Casper]

Originally Posted by Richard Casto

Probably a good topic for the "How to fix F1" thread.

Richard

That's a lost cause, every fan, participant, commentator and pundit has multiple answers to that just like I have and everyone thinks they are right including me. it will take a dictator of some strength to even take a serious look at all the problems F1 has but it would be fun watching everyone's reaction.

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by Casper

That's a lost cause, every fan, participant, commentator and pundit has multiple answers to that just like I have and everyone thinks they are right including me. it will take a dictator of some strength to even take a serious look at all the problems F1 has but it would be fun watching everyone's reaction.

Your right. I think we should just shut the forum down. It's all just a bunch of arguing with no point to it. And I guess we can just keep this off topic and in this thread. Because this is all clearly about driving standards and stewarding!

My serious reply is that... In general don't we generally have a dictator (Liberty Media). Is the problem really that they are not acting dictatorial enough? Or more accurately. They are not dictating in the way that we like (long list of fan grievances... including many that are contradictory of each other as you can't make everyone happy). Isn't that true of most dictators?

Richard

[Casper]

Originally Posted by Richard Casto

Your right. I think we should just shut the forum down. It's all just a bunch of arguing with no point to it. And I guess we can just keep this off topic and in this thread. Because this is all clearly about driving standards and stewarding!

My serious reply is that... In general don't we generally have a dictator (Liberty Media). Is the problem really that they are not acting dictatorial enough? Or more accurately. They are not dictating in the way that we like (long list of fan grievances... including many that are contradictory of each other as you can't make everyone happy). Isn't that true of most dictators?

Richard

The sport has reached a point where the inmates are running the jail but the inmates have a huge investment in running the jail so them having what some see is undue influence would seem reasonable to them. Liberty came in and said things were going to change but the inmates held a gun to their head and said let's see you try it. BE ceded undue influence to the inmates to prevent them splitting from F1 all those years ago and then introduced appearance money as well to compound the issue. The inmates readily agreed of course but those decisions has bitten F1 though the inmates would disagree strongly of course. The reason for lack of good racing as we see it from the fan seat is everyone is trying to protect their own position and until there is some meeting of the minds and a collective and non combative way forward found there will always be the discord we see now.

The present talks about PU's is a glaring example of why the teams hold back the sport, NIMBY thinking is rife in F1 and the approach taken on self interest grounds illustrates the endemic problems which exist in the organisation. The bigger question I would ask is apart from the ludicrous costs involved in the present PU which the teams themselves designed why spend millions more designing another one. The money spent designing another one would be better spent by keeping the current arrangements and lowering the costs to the customer teams as the R&D is amortised over a longer period.

I had better end my rant as I could write pages on this stuff none of which other fans would agree with which illustrates the problems that exist in F1.

I will duplicate this post in the Problems thread.

[coppice]

I agree with everything you say - the last people I'd trust to safeguard the best interests of the sport are the teams . Riven by self interest, living in a bubble and incapable of agreeing upon the time of day , let alone a future framework for F1 . Heads rammed so far up own backsides they seem utterly incapable of realising how absurd they look and sound.

Result - an obscenely expensive formula , involving thin grids running virtually spec cars, and often at joke tracks in joke countries .

The current rules framework is stupidly over prescriptive and actively is preventing drivers from racing each other . Egged on by a fanbase who treat F1 as some sort or reality TV show , we now have rules which require officials to investigate every racing incident - failed overtake attempt , elbows out action on lap 1 , running wide - as if it is the crime of the century.

Reset needed...

[billy bleach]

Originally Posted by coppice

I agree with everything you say - the last people I'd trust to safeguard the best interests of the sport are the teams . Riven by self interest, living in a bubble and incapable of agreeing upon the time of day , let alone a future framework for F1 . Heads rammed so far up own backsides they seem utterly incapable of realising how absurd they look and sound.

Result - an obscenely expensive formula , involving thin grids running virtually spec cars, and often at joke tracks in joke countries .

The current rules framework is stupidly over prescriptive and actively is preventing drivers from racing each other . Egged on by a fanbase who treat F1 as some sort or reality TV show , we now have rules which require officials to investigate every racing incident - failed overtake attempt , elbows out action on lap 1 , running wide - as if it is the crime of the century.

Reset needed...

Got that right , spot on

[AnnoyedMoose]

F1, as with many things, works best when a dictator is in charge. Trying to please all the people all the time never works.

[coppice]

Dictators never work . 'Power corrupts , absolute power corrupts absolutely' - Ecclestone's lust for money, wherever it came from , devalued and disgraced F1 . His admiration for Putin and novel portrayal of Hitler as some sort of victim of history showed there was no depth to which this shameful little man wouldn't sink
.

Do feel free to share good examples of other dictators' work .

[S griffin]

F1 doesn't need a dictator, just someone who isn't afraid to put his foot down, whilst listening to other views from those in the sport

[wnut]

Originally Posted by coppice

Dictators never work . 'Power corrupts , absolute power corrupts absolutely' - Ecclestone's lust for money, wherever it came from , devalued and disgraced F1 . His admiration for Putin and novel portrayal of Hitler as some sort of victim of history showed there was no depth to which this shameful little man wouldn't sink
.

Do feel free to share good examples of other dictators' work .

I guess dictators tend to bring a vision, a focus and a result, and some other results and effects that are less acceptable and often a big problem, whereas a democracy delivers a mish mash of self interested groups' visions. More stable, but more resistant to change, good or bad.

Napoleon gave us the metric system a result that a democracy would never have delivered, but came along with a whole lot of ambitions that were barbaric. The inferial system is illogical and a mess, yet it is still embraced by the U.S.A. even though imperial units are based on the metric system! Unbelievable.

Bernie took F1 from an unstable mess poked and prodded the competitors with a variety of interests into line, and turned it into a professional and well funded and safer sport that potential sponsors and promoters could deal with. He kept a lot of the money he generated for himself and did better out of the changes than anybody else, but still left a much better and more stable and better funded sport behind him. Could it be better, certainly.

Bill France, another dictator built NASCAR.

[coppice]

'Unstable mess' it may have been to some, but let's not fall into the trap of sneering at the past , as if everything were better now because it's modern and it's all on HD telly .

Ecclestone's sins ,with many others to be taken into consideration, include playing silly games with his late chum Max against anybody they fancied having a bit of sport with - FIA , circuit owners (who were bled dry ), teams and drivers. He started taking Grands Prix to any country with a big enough wallet , regardless of where the money came from, how repressive the country was to its own citizens (read about press freedom in Azerbaijan or the fate of dissenters in Dubai , or Russia) and any spontaneity or diversity in the grid was progressively diminished.

I've seen 30 plus cars compete for the grid , heard V8, V10 and V12 in the same race , seen non championship races for contemporary F1 cars , admired single car entries , seen first hand the disruption Renault caused in 77 with a V6 turbo half the capacity of any other car , watched how just one team exploited ground effect and raised my eyebrows at Gordon Murray's lateral thinking with refuelling pit stops and the fan car - ironically for Ecclestone's team.

No such innovation can ever be seen again. We have effectively a spec formula so expensive that grids are 30% smaller than they were in the past . The F1 hierarchy flirts with and defers to big manufacturers , to give superficial glister to the sport despite the fact that they can - and do - walk away on a moment's notice. But small teams of racers - like so many were - don't have chance of progressing .


The fact that some dictators may have done some good things (Mussolini's legendarily punctual trains ) is neither here nor there . The point is that at its very essence the status of dictatorship means that , good or evil , crazed or sane, cruel or kind , there are no limits on a dictator's power, He or she has unlimited power , Thankfully , a healthy number of dictators have ended their reign at the end of a rope strung from a lamp post by a vengeful population .

[TrapezeArtist]

Originally Posted by coppice

'Unstable mess' it may have been to some, but let's not fall into the trap of sneering at the past , as if everything were better now because it's modern and it's all on HD telly .

Ecclestone's sins ,with many others to be taken into consideration, include playing silly games with his late chum Max against anybody they fancied having a bit of sport with - FIA , circuit owners (who were bled dry ), teams and drivers. He started taking Grands Prix to any country with a big enough wallet , regardless of where the money came from, how repressive the country was to its own citizens (read about press freedom in Azerbaijan or the fate of dissenters in Dubai , or Russia) and any spontaneity or diversity in the grid was progressively diminished.

I've seen 30 plus cars compete for the grid , heard V8, V10 and V12 in the same race , seen non championship races for contemporary F1 cars , admired single car entries , seen first hand the disruption Renault caused in 77 with a V6 turbo half the capacity of any other car , watched how just one team exploited ground effect and raised my eyebrows at Gordon Murray's lateral thinking with refuelling pit stops and the fan car - ironically for Ecclestone's team.

No such innovation can ever be seen again. We have effectively a spec formula so expensive that grids are 30% smaller than they were in the past . The F1 hierarchy flirts with and defers to big manufacturers , to give superficial glister to the sport despite the fact that they can - and do - walk away on a moment's notice. But small teams of racers - like so many were - don't have chance of progressing .


The fact that some dictators may have done some good things (Mussolini's legendarily punctual trains ) is neither here nor there . The point is that at its very essence the status of dictatorship means that , good or evil , crazed or sane, cruel or kind , there are no limits on a dictator's power, He or she has unlimited power , Thankfully , a healthy number of dictators have ended their reign at the end of a rope strung from a lamp post by a vengeful population .

I've often said that the best form of government is a benevolent dictatorship. Of course, getting a dictatorship is easy, but it's getting (and even more difficult, keeping) the "benevolent" bit that is a lot more tricky.

[Aysedasi]

We seem to have digressed somewhat from the topic......

[Teretonga]

Originally Posted by Casper

Well said, I also think extremism has reached F1 and the event in Holland has a big chance of proving that. Why we now have to have a penalty every time two cars have contact escapes me because it was never so and as I said the incident that has sparked this uproar would have been a nothing event and just mentioned in passing. As someone who has had a lot of experience actually racing I don't get it at all, both drivers were as much to blame as the other because they were both determined not to yield at any cost and no fan who has not been there can even begin to understand the thinking that occurs in such a situation and to call for someone to die over it is simply a lunatic spouting lunatic words.

So can someone tell me why there has to be a penalty every time a car leaves the circuit after contact when it is not premeditated as the Prost/Senna incident definitely was. I was always told racin' is rubbin' and get over it. I am not interested in the rights or wrong of the Silverstone incident just an overall reason that everyone reckons every contact deserves a penalty.

All true. And I remember Al Unser and Fittapaldi contacting during the closing laps of the Indy 500 and Al applauds Emersons win....

[S griffin]

Originally Posted by Teretonga

All true. And I remember Al Unser and Fittapaldi contacting during the closing laps of the Indy 500 and Al applauds Emersons win....

Yes, I thought about that incident after the Max/Lewis collision at the British GP. Basically both drivers in that incident said that neither was going to back down and as a result they had a collision and that it was nothing more than a racing incident.

[wnut]

Originally Posted by S griffin

Yes, I thought about that incident after the Max/Lewis collision at the British GP. Basically both drivers in that incident said that neither was going to back down and as a result they had a collision and that it was nothing more than a racing incident.

So by your logic Griff, if someone comes up behind you in a night club and unexpectedly hits you over the head with a bottle, you are both equally guilty of assault if you claim you were assaulted?

I think the problem is that the sport has moved on to a fully corporate era and fully professional fouls are now in play.

[Aysedasi]

Originally Posted by wnut

So by your logic Griff, if someone comes up behind you in a night club and unexpectedly hits you over the head with a bottle, you are both equally guilty of assault if you claim you were assaulted?

I don't think that's what he meant at all (and you know it) because that's not what happened....