[Rules] Future Rule Changes

[Nikki Katz]

Bernie was pushing for a points ballast penalty wasn't he, and this qualifying mess was just a compromise to keep him quiet? Which hasn't worked...

[djinvicta]

As I said earlier, Spa with a 6 minute run each time,( out, quali lap and in lap), this is not going to work. Will be the same at Singapore.

[Akrapovic]

Are we just messing with qualifying in an attempt to make the racing more exciting? Can't we tackle the real problem - the cars can't race each other properly - rather than just working around it with ridiculous rules. We're fast approaching BTCC levels of gimmicks.

[chillibowl]

just said this in the race thread, but this format came very very close to working and in a sense it did work in that Kvyat and Bottas were caught out, Rosberg was nearly caught out, Mclaren jumped ahead, and the Force Indias' may have found a sweet spot by settling for 9th and 10th.

other than the final 4 minutes, which i agree was dreadful, most of the problems were self inflicted as the teams couldn't figure out the spacing and time required and frankly some of the teams looking like they gave up too quickly.

which maybe speaks to a larger problem in F1...few teams have people on the pit wall doing the sums. the teams have become too reliant on their computer modeling and relying on their data centres at home to work out the numbers for them.

no one took any chances and played this one strictly by the numbers and no doubt lost time in the pits while they where busy talking things through with their committees back at base.

[chillibowl]

also going to add a bit of conspiracy to this...but who made the choice to barely show the laps of the only 2 cars on track at the end of Q3?

Nico barley came close to LH's earlier time and LH then responded with the first sub 1.23sec lap of the weekend.

instead of showing those final laps they showed the cars all sitting in the pits and the drivers getting weighed.

its almost if they intentionally tried to make it look as boring as possible.

just saying but i have a feeling that we are all being manipulated into thinking this was a terrible session and a terrible format and the promoter who wasnt there was quick to respond by saying how pants it was.

[Akrapovic]

If qualifying is declared a success because it catches cars out then sums up F1. It's designed to work around the problem by giving us artificially out of place cars on the grid.

This qualifying format is an answer to a question that nobody asked. And the answer is still wrong.

[djinvicta]

Add to that, I think Ferrari crew thought it crap, and Vettel said, that's it, we're not going out again. I do disagree with a few on here saying give it time. We gave it an hour and it was a failure with standing and TV fans.

[chillibowl]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

If qualifying is declared a success because it catches cars out then sums up F1. It's designed to work around the problem by giving us artificially out of place cars on the grid.

This qualifying format is an answer to a question that nobody asked. And the answer is still wrong.

actually this is the issue at the heart of many of the problems we complain about here...F1 is too easy.

we want faster cars, ban radio comms because we want drivers to think for themselves, we want to see teams pushed to the point where they make mistakes, and we want this battle played out on track and not in the factory where the advantage built by engineers is what leads a team to victory.

and as soon as that happens then its too complicated and lets makes things simpler and easier.

[chillibowl]

Originally Posted by djinvicta

Add to that, I think Ferrari crew thought it crap, and Vettel said, that's it, we're not going out again....

i think the Ferrari crew were demoralized the moment LH set his first time in Q1 and they realized how little progress they had made in improving their own car.

under the old format we still would have had merc 1-2 and if anything Ferrari maybe caught a break by finishing 3-4 and that Bottas got caught out and Massa didnt have time to make another run.

Ferrari were the big winners of the new format imo so obviously they think it was crap!

[Mike Harte]

It would seem that all the teams are universally against the new qualifying format, and I believe that BCE has had telephone conversations with their principals (he is not in Australia, but watched it live on the TV). It is proposed that all the principals will meet tomorrow (Sunday) morning to discuss the new format, and report back to BCE. I would be surprised if the experiment is repeated in Bahrain in two weeks time.

In other news, teams and drivers have been reminded that it is an offence to discard visor tear-off strips on to the track or on to the pit road.

[Adam43]

So in desperation to say Q would be bad the theory that it would kill drivers proved false as it is no more dangerous than before. The theory that it was artificial is false as the fastest are still most likely to be at the front. So that part remains a sport, but not a show.

If thought was applied before it was clear that it would just bring the 'end game' forward. Instead of a slightly dead bit between about 8-4 minutes to go it is now maybe the last 4 minutes.

That people didn't go out to save tyres or because they wouldn't improve is a problem not specifically with this qualifying, but it also existed with the last one.

And one team didn't read the cut off rules closely enough!

It's crap, but it isn't unfair and it's isn't overly dangerous.

I'd change it to be simple and sporting. Although people want a show.

[chillibowl]

Originally Posted by Adam43

If thought was applied before it was clear that it would just bring the 'end game' forward. Instead of a slightly dead bit between about 8-4 minutes to go it is now maybe the last 4 minutes.

that makes sense. if they shortened Q3 and added the time to Q2 then they could potentially offer a bit more time between knock outs.

i suppose it would be massively unpopular (and more expensive) to suggest that teams be allowed to bring refueling rigs with them so they could add fuel and change tires in the pit lane...too much time was wasted by having to push the cars into the garages.

[Akrapovic]

It is artificial. It is purely there to try and catch out a car to get a few big cars back in the pack. Just because it worked out with a Mercedes 1-2, doesn't mean that it changes what it's trying to do. It's an attempt to artificially create racing because the series doesn't produce it on its own.

[chillibowl]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

It is artificial. It is purely there to try and catch out a car to get a few big cars back in the pack. Just because it worked out with a Mercedes 1-2, doesn't mean that it changes what it's trying to do. It's an attempt to artificially create racing because the series doesn't produce it on its own.

arent all rule/format changes artificial? to either make it harder or more simple to either catch someone out or to catch them in. otherwise F1 would be like most other sports where there have only been relatively few or minor rules changes over the decades. F1 is always about rule/format changes...maybe even one of its unique and defining characteristics.

so with all due respect, im not sure how it being 'artificial' is a legitimate argument against particularity when changing it, reverting to an older format, is just as 'artificial'.

to be honest though, im not entirely sure what constitutes an artificial change vs a natural change so maybe im missing your point. if i am sorry about that.

[Akrapovic]

Saying "aren't all rules artificial"? Is a silly question otherwise what's the difference between changing aero rules and picking balls out of a tub to decide qualifying? There's a very obvious difference that doesn't need explained. And the same with F1 qualifying. When you change the technical rules in an attempt to allow the cars to pass each other, that's different to attempting to catch cars out so they get stuck back in the pack to produce some passing.

Last years qualifying was not really artificial. It was split into 3 sessions to force cars out, so unlike the old 1 hour session, we see cars through the entire session rather than just the last bit. This new qualifying is deliberately designed to catch cars out. It also won't even work at long circuits, especially if it rained.

There are different levels of artificial, as we all know. This new session is way on the wrong side of it. It might as well be a NASCAR style knock out system.

[JeremySmith]

Originally Posted by Adam43

So in desperation to say Q would be bad the theory that it would kill drivers proved false as it is no more dangerous than before. The theory that it was artificial is false as the fastest are still most likely to be at the front. So that part remains a sport, but not a show.

If thought was applied before it was clear that it would just bring the 'end game' forward. Instead of a slightly dead bit between about 8-4 minutes to go it is now maybe the last 4 minutes.

That people didn't go out to save tyres or because they wouldn't improve is a problem not specifically with this qualifying, but it also existed with the last one.

And one team didn't read the cut off rules closely enough!

It's crap, but it isn't unfair and it's isn't overly dangerous.

I'd change it to be simple and sporting. Although people want a show.

I agree with you, except that I think it's a little bit more dangerous as I thought that the drivers were somewhat panicked to get out and post a time as fast as possible ..
At the end of the day though, it's crap and it's going to disappear ..
Good to see you Adam 😊

[chillibowl]

im clearly alone here but i'll tell you one thing though...whatever enjoyment/entertainment i failed to get out of the session i have more than made up for it by having something to talk about today.

so enjoy it while it lasts because as soon as they revert back to the old format it will go back to sessions which barely inspire a half dozen posts in the race thread.

[Adam43]

It's not artificial as it is as fair for all. Random or reversed grids is artificial. DRS is artificial. Anything that gives an advantage to someone who is worse is artificial.

Sorry, it's crap, but the rules are the same for all. It's not just it was 1-2 for Merc. that indicates this, it is the whole grid and in all previous versions there is a chance that a player is further down than they should be.

Originally Posted by JeremySmith

I agree with you, except that I think it's a little bit more dangerous as I thought that the drivers were somewhat panicked to get out and post a time as fast as possible ..
At the end of the day though, it's crap and it's going to disappear ..
Good to see you Adam ��

Rosberg is always going to want to choke, he doesn't need any more pressure

[Taxi645]

I wouldn't mind a 30-45min sprint race on Saturday with a grid based on a reversed championship standing.

Race result from Saturday will be the starting grid from the main race on Sunday. That way you'll have two very exciting races and plenty of time for the championship leader to make it to the front over the course of both races combined.

Would I prefer just a competitive field over something slightly artificial like this? Yes, but since that is all in gridlock and will remain so for years to come, I wouldn't mind this to provide more interesting races with more overtaking and a bit more of a challenge for the drivers.


On a side note: how much faster were the cars this year? We still need 5s faster cars in 2017?

[TzeiTzei]

Didn't like it at all. I like to follow the battle at the back of the field and with this system there was none. The end of Q2 and Q3 was just ridiculous.

[VIVA GT]

OK, todays qualifying didn't work as they hoped for a number of reasons, the biggest problem being a lack of cars on track at the end of the sessions. My suggestion is also artificial, but I think a change to the tyre rules could help. I suggest the re-introduction of qualifying tyres, but instead of the one lap wonders that they used to be, my new qualifying tyres would last the whole session, without any degredation. This would allow all of the cars to be on track for the whole time, but getting quicker as their fuel loads reduce. An added spice would be for teams who short fuel, but then last longer than expected & run out of fuel on their final flier.
0Yes it's (still) artificial, and some would still claim that it's unfair (but someone always will, whatever happens), but I think thatit would make qualifying more exciting & more enertaiing because there should always be cars running up to the end of each session.

[fredd1]

Originally Posted by wolfhound

Bernie said he was not enthusiastic about the new qually format from the start, I thought that he was the one pushing to change the format of qualifying. If so he is primarily responsible for its introduction. I wonder if he is man enough to admit his mistake. Admitting mistakes is something Bernie is not fond of doing.

I think for an elimination style qually it would need to be a much longer session so that everybody has time to absorb what is happening. Something like 5 minute intervals might work but you would still need a proper shoot out of the front runners.

I do believe if one were to look back thru all the pages and pages written on the topic, one would find the instigator and chief proponent was one BCE.

[wnut]

Originally Posted by fredd1

I do believe if one were to look back thru all the pages and pages written on the topic, one would find the instigator and chief proponent was one BCE.

He does get it right from time to time though ...

http://www.pitpass.com/55670/Manufac...s-cartel-smear

[Dixie Flatline]

Back to the future. Current qualifying rules scrapped in favour of the 2015 version from Bahrain.

[bjohnsonsmith]

The FIA announced the relaxing of radio communications before the start of the Australian GP.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report...ts-immediately

So that's the Qualifying format and now the rules about radio communication being reverted. Why bother changing them in the first place?