Time to pay the hard working 'volunteers'??

[275 GTB-4]

Originally Posted by Uncle Cranker

As a slightly more than once-a-year official, GTB, I hope your vitriol doesn't spread to the track when you compete.

Else I might have to make an exception & 'write you up'.......

I understand your point, but please don't lump the regulars in with the once or twice a year mob.

Most of us regulars have forgotten more that they remember........

Ummmm me a Flaggie/CofC team member...not talented enough to keep just about any racing device on the blacktop

In my experience, there are brilliant "regulars", "regulars" who are average performers and "regulars" who regularly stuff things up for the volunteer team.

I agree with you...some have forgotten more than they can remember...maybe their egos don't leave room to retain the basics???

[EGG]

I was usually happy with the free lunch, but I'm also not a regular. I have to pay credit to the clerk of the course's/chief marshal's, they put up with more crap (disgruntled drivers/riders) than I would be prepared to do on a weekend.

If the positions became paid positions it might attract more people to become flag marshals, but since it would not be well paid would probably attract the wrong sort of people. People after the job opportunity of sitting down at a racetrack all day, rather than passionate believers in the sport.

I think this would be the clincher on top of OHS, weekend work, low pay and sitting down would definitely attract some numbnuts.

[NewsStalker]

Originally Posted by 275 GTB-4

Have you ever been outside the Victorian borders NS??

Only state I haven't been to (in terms of motor sport) is Tas - so the answer is 'yes' (add NZ and the UK if you want).

[PVDA]

Originally Posted by NewsStalker

I was also under the impression that Simon's group in Victoria was a paid unit ie they are not there as volunteers.

"Simon's Group" is just another volunteer group the main difference is that their accomodation is paid for as is travel costs for interstate meetings remembering RACESAFE is the series Medical Team of the Australian Superbike Series.

Promotors are charged a fee for service and remembering the cost of medical equipment and consumables is high as is fuel, an SS Commodore doing a full lap chase of every race of a meeting uses a LOT of Unleaded in a day.

I'm a former member having left back in October 2005 to do other things in the sport

[NewsStalker]

Paul - no disrepect intended - I simply couldn't recall, at the time I write it, the business name of RaceSafe.

I also acknowledge that some volunteers are individually paid (it seems to depend on which club you are a member of and whether that club is named after an Island or a state) but that some volunteer 'organisations' have negotiated their own 'fee' structures.

[PVDA]

NS I hope you didn't take the RACESAFE in all caps as me shouting or something??

That's how Simon prefers it to be written

[NewsStalker]

Paul - no - no offence etc. All other Race.... names seem to be written that way (capitalise the first lette, then lower case etc) and was just following their convention. Besides - I think we would all know it you were SHOUTING at us

[Trevor]

Originally Posted by NewsStalker

Sorry Trev - but as MPA says - these organisations DO get paid (and have for a number of years).

Sorry, your question was, and to correct you:

Originally Posted by NewsStalker

With all this talk going on - aren't most of these 'volunteer groups' being recompensed by way of 'donations' to the various group or club they are part of?

And again my answer is no, most of these 'volunteer groups' are not being paid, some, but not most

[Trevor]

Originally Posted by 275 GTB-4

Have you ever been outside the Victorian borders NS??

Thank you 275 GTB-4

[Trevor]

Originally Posted by NewsStalker

I was also under the impression that Simon's group in Victoria was a paid unit ie they are not there as volunteers.

Being a former member of that team I can assure you that not all people were paid, most were volunteers, just like me

[NewsStalker]

Trev - please re-read - I didn't say the members of the team were paid - the ORGANISATION itself is/was. I know that one particular club views this as the members of that team being paid (which we know is not the case). And I also understand why the organisation is paid - as already said, equipment, vehicles etc etc which are NOT provided by either the volunteers or the promoters IS expensive and, without these umbrella organisations, wouldn't be available to anyone.

[MPA]

Originally Posted by 275 GTB-4

Please don't take this the wrong way, but people do race with their fate in the hands of a mix of expertise including once-a-year barely trained Flag, Fire, Recovery and Medics all reporting via Comms to a Race Control regularly!!!

No I wont take this the wrong way, the sport would suffer if the once a year officials did not turn up every now and then. But most of the time the once a year folk are mixed in with the regulars.

It would be hard to imagine a car arriving at Sandown turn 1 on its lid on fire and having a full crew of once a year guys to deal with it.

[275 GTB-4]

Originally Posted by NewsStalker

Only state I haven't been to (in terms of motor sport) is Tas - so the answer is 'yes' (add NZ and the UK if you want).

Good to see you have got around a bit...pity you appear to have done so wearing blinkers...your comments are a fair way off the mark with what actually happens at a lot of race meetings.

[PVDA]

This thread is going around in more circles than Robbie Bolger in a Ute

To clarify a few things

• The majority of trackside officials are unpaid volunteers
• Some of us do, at some events, get accomodation and, if lucky, fuel paid for.
• Some individual marshals are compensated for the fuel they are using during the event (4x4 recovery drivers and so on)
• Organised groups of officials (Flags, Fire, Medical) charge a fee for service to cover running the group but not for members expenses.
• Members of those groups are usually not paid BUT again some may get a bed & fuel if away from home.
• At professionally promoted events (F1GP, Targa Tas) or permanent circuit full time staff are obviously paid (It's thier job after all)
• Series officials (VE$A, Aust Superbike) are paid or at least given a bed & plane ticket.

Hope this helps.

[bludvl_x19]

Originally Posted by PVDA

This thread is going around in more circles than Robbie Bolger in a Ute

To clarify a few things

• The majority of trackside officials are unpaid volunteers
• Some of us do, at some events, get accomodation and, if lucky, fuel paid for.
• Some individual marshals are compensated for the fuel they are using during the event (4x4 recovery drivers and so on)
• Organised groups of officials (Flags, Fire, Medical) charge a fee for service to cover running the group but not for members expenses.
• Members of those groups are usually not paid BUT again some may get a bed & fuel if away from home.
• At professionally promoted events (F1GP, Targa Tas) or permanent circuit full time staff are obviously paid (It's thier job after all)
• Series officials (VE$A, Aust Superbike) are paid or at least given a bed & plane ticket.

Hope this helps.

Yes, but no, because I don't fall into any of those categories, BUT regardless of who gets paid and who does, the fact of the matter is that me took this hobby on knowing that we were volunteers, and as such, didnt get paid. A bit of recognition for the jobs that we do from those higher up would be GREAT.

Mick

[NewsStalker]

275 - what happens on the track itself - yes I may be in the dark, but what happens on the officials/promotion side then, sorry - I am aware of how things work and how they get paid. As PVDA rightly points out and as I said from the start:

Organised groups of officials (Flags, Fire, Medical) charge a fee for service to cover running the group but not for members expenses.
Members of those groups are usually not paid BUT again some may get a bed & fuel if away from home.

You will also find that a number of senior officials at some race meetings DO get compensated for travel, accom, very long lunches (and expensive ones) and these are not classified as 'payments' but as 'meeting expenses' (I am aware of one 'Chief.....' putting in an account for meals for that persons team of over $1,500 for a 3 day meeting in NSW - no, no names (let the rumours begin) and because it came out of the blue the circuit paid up. They then changed that person but the damage had already been done).

[275 GTB-4]

Originally Posted by NewsStalker

With all this talk going on - aren't most of these 'volunteer groups' being recompensed by way of 'donations' to the various group or club they are part of? I was reasonably certain the Flaggies and Fire Marshall groups in VIC and NSW were.

I was also under the impression that Simon's group in Victoria was a paid unit ie they are not there as volunteers.

You started out with the above...obviously with an agenda...and finally you point out that certain individuals seek and are provided with remuneration in isolation from the majority of volunteers....volunteers are not generally in a "club" just a loose fraternity...nothing new here people...move along.

PVDA summed it up pretty good (from a Victorian perspective)...and I have been provided with the odd Motel room along with a bunch of others at particular meetings.....but I would call these isolated and few and far between in NSW (at any rate) where I do most of my meetings.

So what is your agenda??

[NewsStalker]

Why should there be an agenda? You're the one making it sem to have one - I merely pointed out two things:

1. Groups ARE paid by various tracks around the country
2. There are SOME key officials who are paid for their services either by way of 'over the top' reimbursement of expenses or simply out and out payments.

There is nothing sinister in this considering the vast majority of officials around the country do not get paid (primarily for reasons already stated) and also that many officials are also not aware that some groups ARE getting paid.

Now, if you can make an agenda out of that - go ahead because I can't.

[275 GTB-4]

Originally Posted by NewsStalker

Why should there be an agenda? You're the one making it sem to have one - I merely pointed out two things:

1. Groups ARE paid by various tracks around the country
2. There are SOME key officials who are paid for their services either by way of 'over the top' reimbursement of expenses or simply out and out payments.

There is nothing sinister in this considering the vast majority of officials around the country do not get paid (primarily for reasons already stated) and also that many officials are also not aware that some groups ARE getting paid.

Now, if you can make an agenda out of that - go ahead because I can't.

There is everything sinister about some of the people "in the know" who use their position to further their own interests over the efforts of others

I am not talking about Stewards and some high ranking officials who do receive travel relief etc

1. CERTAIN groups are paid...not ALL.

2. "KEY" officials???

[bludvl_x19]

Originally Posted by 275 GTB-4

2. "KEY" officials???

Me thinks they're the ones who have stepped on the right heads on their way to the top.

Mick

[Mr_Cool]

Being a NSW volunteer i am very interested to see who that 'Chief' was, I'm guessing it's associated with Wakefield Park.

On Wakefield Park, they used to offer accomodation to people from Sydney, Canberra, at the Fujitsu series we stayed in a motel so i'm wondering if the new Winton owners will offer the same thing because if they don't they will lose all the marshalls with experience.

[NewsStalker]

275 - Like I said - you are trying to read something into this that simply isn;t there. But, just to set your mind at rest (if possible):

Certain groups - Flaggies, fire marshalls, timekeepers. Scrutes I am not 100% sure of as I believe they aren't represented by a single organisation as such.

Key officials - Clerk of Course, race secretary are tro that immediately spring to mind. Stewards definately (but these are CAMS appointed not by the promoter). Some events (usually International) these positions are paid in that they are employed by the organiser for periods of time prior to, during and after the event. Gold Coast employs (did? Still does?) John Jones; AGP employs Peter Nelson; not sure about the arrangements with Bathurst and A1 GP. CAMS emplys Tim Schenken and there is speculation he is also paid by V8SCA. None of this is private or secret information btw and, at all other events, the occupants of these positions is a volunteer.

There is notuing secret, sinister or nasty about mentioning these - personally I say good on the officials who have formed a group and can get the promoter to chip in. But it is a far cry from individuals (apart from thos e'key officials' being compensated.

[Trevor]

Originally Posted by Mr_Cool

On Wakefield Park, they used to offer accomodation to people from Sydney, Canberra, at the Fujitsu series we stayed in a motel so i'm wondering if the new Winton owners will offer the same thing because if they don't they will lose all the marshalls with experience.

And what a great way to negoitate a postive outcome, to make an idle threat on a public forum behind an anonymous name.

Have you rang Wakefield Park of Winton to ask? I bet not - what a tool!

I can tell you from a previous personal experience, and having been in charge of a different type/group of volunteers, if someone made a threat to me like that, my answer would be simple - STAY HOME, and ask yourself the question "Why am I volunteering?".

Just for the un-educated, volunteering is about giving, not taking. If you are there to take, then should you really be doing it?

[NewsStalker]

Trev - have you been getting out of the wrong side of bed lately?

Volunteering is not ALL about giving and not taking. It is also about helping BUT a the same time balancing costs to yourself AND the organisation you volunteer to work for.

If the organisation continually takes from you and gives nothing in return, then they are soon going to lose those volunteers.

In the case of places such as Wakefield (and I would even in clude Winton in this group) the costs to the volunteers is such that eventually they are going to stop coming unless there is some return - no matter how small.

You have it relatively easy for Winton - your travel is not much - neither is accom; but for those who live 3-4 hours away the cost includes travel (petrol etc), accom and meals.

There is only so much a volunteer will continue to give without something in return.

[Trevor]

Originally Posted by NewsStalker

Trev - have you been getting out of the wrong side of bed lately?

Yes, but not so much wrong side, but with a fair bit of pain, and I am glad it is showing.

Originally Posted by NewsStalker

Volunteering is not ALL about giving and not taking. It is also about helping BUT a the same time balancing costs to yourself AND the organisation you volunteer to work for.

If the organisation continually takes from you and gives nothing in return, then they are soon going to lose those volunteers.

In the case of places such as Wakefield (and I would even include Winton in this group) the costs to the volunteers is such that eventually they are going to stop coming unless there is some return - no matter how small.

You have it relatively easy for Winton - your travel is not much - neither is accom; but for those who live 3-4 hours away the cost includes travel (petrol etc), accom and meals.

There is only so much a volunteer will continue to give without something in return.

I appreciate all that, but what annoys me is when people come here making threats like that, ring the people and find out, or don't they have the balls to do that?

I am a 'chronic volunteer", quite like many others I know, and PVDA springs straight to mind. What does he get, or want for that matter, not very bloody much from what I have observed. He is a 'true' volunteer.