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Old 31 Oct 2010, 19:45 (Ref:2783094)   #1
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Tyres - The Great Debate!

Just got back from Donington racing with the CSCC. A handful of us that normally race in the Appendix K series (on Dunlop Histos) were in with a full Swinging 60's grid (with sticky Yokohamas or similar).

Can someone tell me the point of racing old cars on tyres like that?

I was sliding and drifting all over the place having a riot, meanwhile everything around me was just stuck firmly to the track (god knows how much mechanical wear and tear those tyres cause)

I just don't see the point, personally? If you are racing old cars surely you do so in order to get the whole package - including the slidy handling??
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Old 31 Oct 2010, 21:19 (Ref:2783136)   #2
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Originally Posted by skentellytubby View Post
Just got back from Donington racing with the CSCC. A handful of us that normally race in the Appendix K series (on Dunlop Histos) were in with a full Swinging 60's grid (with sticky Yokohamas or similar).

Can someone tell me the point of racing old cars on tyres like that?

I was sliding and drifting all over the place having a riot, meanwhile everything around me was just stuck firmly to the track (god knows how much mechanical wear and tear those tyres cause)

I just don't see the point, personally? If you are racing old cars surely you do so in order to get the whole package - including the slidy handling??
See my previous post but basically FIA Mustangs are a joke and Dunlops at £1k a set is ridiculous.
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Old 31 Oct 2010, 22:27 (Ref:2783160)   #3
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Originally Posted by skentellytubby View Post
Just got back from Donington racing with the CSCC. A handful of us that normally race in the Appendix K series (on Dunlop Histos) were in with a full Swinging 60's grid (with sticky Yokohamas or similar).

Can someone tell me the point of racing old cars on tyres like that?

I was sliding and drifting all over the place having a riot, meanwhile everything around me was just stuck firmly to the track (god knows how much mechanical wear and tear those tyres cause)

I just don't see the point, personally? If you are racing old cars surely you do so in order to get the whole package - including the slidy handling??
As someone who races with the CSCC in both the Swinging '60's in a car fitted with Yokos and in the App K series in another car on Dunlops maybe I can add insight to your question.

When I started racing about 15 yrs ago I raced with the 750MC in roadsports. I raced a 1960s car because it was what I liked - the usual aspirational thing from when I was a kid. The series ran on Yokos so that's what I used. At the time there were still a lot of the older cars running and being competitive but the Elise had arrived and that was the end of that. I was on a very tight budget and used to spectate at events like the Coy's Festival and thought it would be great to run a "proper" historic car on Dunlops but no way could I afford it. So I raced with 750, TR Register, MGCC etc until the CSCC came along and moved in with them. Still on Yokos and all I had ever known/been able to afford. It wasn't a case of why would you run an old car on modern rubber - that was what the regs stated.

Lately as I have moved on in life I got to a point where I could finally afford to build and run an FIA App K car in suitable events. This has been my first season and it's been great fun but hugely expensive compared with running a non-App K '60's car. £1000 for a set of rubber compared with £250 for Yokos and events generally with higher entrance fees, plus unless you are one of the right crowd you only get an entry into the less popular/under subscribed events.

An old car on modern rubber is still great fun - and yes it does wear out the mechanical side much faster but generally regs allow you to modify to compensate. I certainly wouldn't run the Grantura on Yokos as it is built and set up for Dunlops.

It's two sides of the same penny really - pays your money and takes your choice - its just that if you opt for the App K side you have to pay significantly more money and I don't think the thrill is any bigger (but the egos certainly are).
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Old 31 Oct 2010, 22:36 (Ref:2783165)   #4
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As someone who races with the CSCC in both the Swinging '60's in a car fitted with Yokos and in the App K series in another car on Dunlops maybe I can add insight to your question.

When I started racing about 15 yrs ago I raced with the 750MC in roadsports. I raced a 1960s car because it was what I liked - the usual aspirational thing from when I was a kid. The series ran on Yokos so that's what I used. At the time there were still a lot of the older cars running and being competitive but the Elise had arrived and that was the end of that. I was on a very tight budget and used to spectate at events like the Coy's Festival and thought it would be great to run a "proper" historic car on Dunlops but no way could I afford it. So I raced with 750, TR Register, MGCC etc until the CSCC came along and moved in with them. Still on Yokos and all I had ever known/been able to afford. It wasn't a case of why would you run an old car on modern rubber - that was what the regs stated.

Lately as I have moved on in life I got to a point where I could finally afford to build and run an FIA App K car in suitable events. This has been my first season and it's been great fun but hugely expensive compared with running a non-App K '60's car. £1000 for a set of rubber compared with £250 for Yokos and events generally with higher entrance fees, plus unless you are one of the right crowd you only get an entry into the less popular/under subscribed events.

An old car on modern rubber is still great fun - and yes it does wear out the mechanical side much faster but generally regs allow you to modify to compensate. I certainly wouldn't run the Grantura on Yokos as it is built and set up for Dunlops.

It's two sides of the same penny really - pays your money and takes your choice - its just that if you opt for the App K side you have to pay significantly more money and I don't think the thrill is any bigger (but the egos certainly are).

Last edited by MGDavid; 31 Oct 2010 at 22:37. Reason: removing typo
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Old 1 Nov 2010, 09:50 (Ref:2783294)   #5
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As someone who races with the CSCC in both the Swinging '60's in a car fitted with Yokos and in the App K series in another car on Dunlops maybe I can add insight to your question.

When I started racing about 15 yrs ago I raced with the 750MC in roadsports. I raced a 1960s car because it was what I liked - the usual aspirational thing from when I was a kid. The series ran on Yokos so that's what I used. At the time there were still a lot of the older cars running and being competitive but the Elise had arrived and that was the end of that. I was on a very tight budget and used to spectate at events like the Coy's Festival and thought it would be great to run a "proper" historic car on Dunlops but no way could I afford it. So I raced with 750, TR Register, MGCC etc until the CSCC came along and moved in with them. Still on Yokos and all I had ever known/been able to afford. It wasn't a case of why would you run an old car on modern rubber - that was what the regs stated.

Lately as I have moved on in life I got to a point where I could finally afford to build and run an FIA App K car in suitable events. This has been my first season and it's been great fun but hugely expensive compared with running a non-App K '60's car. £1000 for a set of rubber compared with £250 for Yokos and events generally with higher entrance fees, plus unless you are one of the right crowd you only get an entry into the less popular/under subscribed events.

An old car on modern rubber is still great fun - and yes it does wear out the mechanical side much faster but generally regs allow you to modify to compensate. I certainly wouldn't run the Grantura on Yokos as it is built and set up for Dunlops.

It's two sides of the same penny really - pays your money and takes your choice - its just that if you opt for the App K side you have to pay significantly more money and I don't think the thrill is any bigger (but the egos certainly are).
I can appreciate that, especially the egos bit. I really do get the cost bit totally (hence why I drive what I drive, I am on a budget)

It just left me a little cold? I was right on the tale of an Alfa and I was sliding around all over the shop and his was just planted. It was down to tyres and possibly suspension. Part of the fun for me is seeing the crazy angles our cars get into when under pressure and comitting to fast corners and learning over time where you are "likely" to end up on daft old bias belted tyres.

It felt (right or wrong) like they were modern cars that look like old cars? I'm not knocking it, it just didn't feel like historics.

As has been said, horses for courses isn't it.
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Old 1 Nov 2010, 10:34 (Ref:2783307)   #6
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I enjoy watching both Appendix K and Swinging 60s cars and well understand that the latter will not be emulating their performance in period - a classic example of that is the Golden Oldies, some of which perform light years ahead of anything they did in their day.
Yep, excellent point John. I'd not even thought of that series - some of those cars are absolute hot rods. What tyres do they race on?
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Old 1 Nov 2010, 10:52 (Ref:2783314)   #7
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Yep, excellent point John. I'd not even thought of that series - some of those cars are absolute hot rods. What tyres do they race on?
Dunlop L section (or it may be M section I don't know the difference).
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Old 1 Nov 2010, 10:59 (Ref:2783320)   #8
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L isa higher profile than M . . . . M is about 70 series equivalent, L a bit higher.

by modern standards they're rubbish, but I think they're brilliant for where they're placed.

more period correct tyres would be a good thing . . . . it'd nullify the point of over development!
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Old 1 Nov 2010, 11:11 (Ref:2783326)   #9
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I agree totally.

Do they need to be so expensive? I know Dunlop and Avon don't sell these in huge numbers, but I can see why people don't want to go down the route of historic tyres at £800+ a set.
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Old 1 Nov 2010, 11:12 (Ref:2783328)   #10
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L isa higher profile than M . . . . M is about 70 series equivalent, L a bit higher.

by modern standards they're rubbish, but I think they're brilliant for where they're placed.

more period correct tyres would be a good thing . . . . it'd nullify the point of over development!
.....and would cut down the queue of drivers in race control, having failed eligibility checks, claiming that "you can't get them anymore"
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Old 1 Nov 2010, 11:17 (Ref:2783330)   #11
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Before going into the cost of tyres, it may be wise to clarify the life of a set. How many hours do you get from a set of Dunlops compared to Yokohamas?
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Old 1 Nov 2010, 11:31 (Ref:2783337)   #12
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Before going into the cost of tyres, it may be wise to clarify the life of a set. How many hours do you get from a set of Dunlops compared to Yokohamas?
That seems to depend on what your budget is!

At Donington Revived the Dunlop crew had piles of 'used' tyres that were being binned that hardly looked used at all as far as tread wear was concerned. I cannot comment on how grip is effected by heat cycles but I certainly couldn't have afforded to have thrown them away.

On my Triumph I got a full season out of one set of Yokos plus one tyre for the front LHS so £325 for the season plus ran them in wet and dry.

My Dunlops are £1000 a set and I need Ls and Ms because different regs require me to change them. So that's £2000 plus another set of rims before I even start. As for how long they last - I'll change them when the tread is shot. So far each set has run about 12 hours.

I would be interested in any views on how durable the Dunlop is to hardening through succesive heat cycles (and yes I do measure them with a durometer to gauge what they are doing).
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Old 1 Nov 2010, 11:51 (Ref:2783352)   #13
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We run D84s on the Capri and I usually expect to get 8hours out of a set. I know of one driver who uses a set per event because he has them buffes.

Point taken re budget and longevity but if everyone is on the same page re commitment then I suppose the 1k per season of 20 mins races (plus practice etc.) would seem about right.

Can't understand why you need to run Ls and Ms and thus two sets of rims though.
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Old 1 Nov 2010, 12:03 (Ref:2783361)   #14
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Can't understand why you need to run Ls and Ms and thus two sets of rims though.
I could just run everywhere on Ls as they are accepted in all series but they are no where near as good as the Ms. In fact they're awful! However some regs allow Ms so if allowed to run Ms I will. So I suppose to a degree it is my choice to have both options but to be anywhere near competitive where regs allow Ms then that's what I need to run on.
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Old 1 Nov 2010, 12:18 (Ref:2783370)   #15
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12 heat cycles - we are nowhere near running out of rubber by then but the performance really drops off after that. I don't think that'd be the case at all with some more powerful vehicles though?

Which series runs Ms?
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Old 1 Nov 2010, 12:21 (Ref:2783373)   #16
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What does your B run?
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Old 1 Nov 2010, 12:36 (Ref:2783383)   #17
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What does your B run?
L sections (on wires).

I run old ones for qually (well over 12 heat cycles, but lots of tread left) and new ones for racing (I think we have 6 heat cycles in them - they will become the qually ones in the middle of next season)

There is an appreciable difference on some tracks with fast corners. Craner this weekend was exciting on the older tyres.

Mind you another 30bhp next year may see the tread wear quicker.
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Old 1 Nov 2010, 13:17 (Ref:2783417)   #18
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5.25 M's rears will last 2 years on the Cortina ( possibly more if they don't perish !!!)

4.50 fronts don't last long, but it depends where you are . . . a season if your very lucky or a weekend at Lyden Hill !
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Old 1 Nov 2010, 13:17 (Ref:2783418)   #19
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Which series runs Ms?
CSCC Classic K, Swinging '60's Historic Tyres class, Equipe GTS, HSCC Guards Trophy. I've only had to run the Ls with the Masters.
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Old 1 Nov 2010, 13:50 (Ref:2783443)   #20
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Hmm. I need to know whether I can run Ms!

Terry, where are you? Can I run M sections!?
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Old 1 Nov 2010, 13:57 (Ref:2783447)   #21
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L sections (on wires).

I run old ones for qually (well over 12 heat cycles, but lots of tread left) and new ones for racing (I think we have 6 heat cycles in them - they will become the qually ones in the middle of next season)

There is an appreciable difference on some tracks with fast corners. Craner this weekend was exciting on the older tyres.

Mind you another 30bhp next year may see the tread wear quicker.
Forgive my novice inexperience but what do you call a heat cycle? Is one cycle getting them up to temperatures and another cycle cooling down (i.e. 2 heat cycles on one race) or is one heat cycle classed as heating up and cooling down (one heat cycle per race)?

I second the difference on Yokos. I ran my 'B as an invitation to non appendix K HSCC at Mallory and Silverstone this year and the difference with my car on L's and other similar weighted cars with Yokos was incredible.
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Old 1 Nov 2010, 13:58 (Ref:2783448)   #22
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CSCC Classic K, Swinging '60's Historic Tyres class, Equipe GTS, HSCC Guards Trophy. I've only had to run the Ls with the Masters.

Thought it was only the sports racers that could run on M's in HSCC Guards?
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Old 1 Nov 2010, 14:07 (Ref:2783452)   #23
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Forgive my novice inexperience but what do you call a heat cycle? Is one cycle getting them up to temperatures and another cycle cooling down (i.e. 2 heat cycles on one race) or is one heat cycle classed as heating up and cooling down (one heat cycle per race)?

I second the difference on Yokos. I ran my 'B as an invitation to non appendix K HSCC at Mallory and Silverstone this year and the difference with my car on L's and other similar weighted cars with Yokos was incredible.
It's an entire "heat up and cool down"

practice = one heat cycle
race = one heat cycle
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Old 1 Nov 2010, 14:12 (Ref:2783455)   #24
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Thought it was only the sports racers that could run on M's in HSCC Guards?
Published regulations state:

5.13 TYRES:
All Championship Classes Dunlop L or M 204 compound
SRD & SRE:
DRY: Dunlop CR 65/82 Post Historic 484 Compound
WET: Dunlop CR 65/82 Post Historic 484 Compound with additional hand cut grooves permitted.
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Old 1 Nov 2010, 14:19 (Ref:2783461)   #25
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Hmm. I need to know whether I can run Ms!

Terry, where are you? Can I run M sections!?

In absense, in Guards regs- 'All Championship Classes Dunlop L or M 204 compound'. SRD & SRE can use CR 65/82 Post Historic 484 Compound.


I have a set of Ms on MGB 5.5" rims and they rub on wheelarches on Gilbern, so don't use them. Can't remember seeing Bs running them in Guards, so maybe same problem? In fact, only seen them on TVRs in GTS as routine.


Recent trip tyres managed 4 heat cycles from new to bald on Plus 4, which is hardly overpowered. Track surface a big factor! Total 210 minutes racing and two short as possible qualifying sessions

Whoops- Dave beaten me to it! Sorry for repetition....
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