1984 Trimoco RAC British Saloon Car Championship - Discussion & Results

[Jesper OH]

The BTCC home page has updated their yearly point standings at some point:

http://www.btcc.net/html/history_standings.php

1983 and 1984 has made me wonder a bit, though. The TWR Rovers were excluded from the 1983 results, but it only seems that Steve Soper is missing from the standings!
Part way through 1984 Austin Rover retired from the BTCC because of the Soper exclusion of '83 was finally decided, but somehow all MG and Rover factory drivers has ended up with 0 points although they did finish in the points in individual races before the retirement. What's that about?

Jesper

[chunterer]

I'm not completely sure, but IIRC, but when John Davenport pulled the cars out in June '84 he/ARG asked that points be nullified, even though the actual entries for the 6 cars remained?

[KA]

Originally Posted by chunterer

I'm not completely sure, but IIRC, but when John Davenport pulled the cars out in June '84 he/ARG asked that points be nullified, even though the actual entries for the 6 cars remained?

I think that's my rough memory of what happened as well- the actual race results still stood, but ARG withdrew any claim to the championsip points scored

[rs1600irob]

PLEASEEEEEEE COULD SOME1 HELP ME,,,,,ive just bought wat i beleave to be BARRY LEE'S RS1600I FROM THE BTCC,,,the cars been in a barn for many years and was raced after barry ad it as a modified sallon!!!!!!!! i been seaching for 3 days for pictures of this car n can only find the datapost and a few others,i will try to post pictures of the escort up but please any help wd be so greatful many thanks rob

[Frank de Jong]

Glad you all enjoyed (and studied) it! One thing I don't understand is that Morris had to get an 1.8 engine for his Scirocco II, since "the 1.6 wasn't homologated anymore". Meanwhile, in the Netherlands, a 1.6 Scirocco II happily got its championship. As far as I know, the Scirocco II 1.6 GLI was homologated as a variant of the original Scirocco GTI. Was Morris badly informed?

[lifeline-fire]

Originally Posted by Frank de Jong

Glad you all enjoyed (and studied) it! One thing I don't understand is that Morris had to get an 1.8 engine for his Scirocco II, since "the 1.6 wasn't homologated anymore". Meanwhile, in the Netherlands, a 1.6 Scirocco II happily got its championship. As far as I know, the Scirocco II 1.6 GLI was homologated as a variant of the original Scirocco GTI. Was Morris badly informed?

Frank, 12 months late i know, but I have seen your quote above. I have just spoken to my father (John Morris) about this and he had no idea that this was the case. He says VW UK informed him the car was out of Homologation and therefore in there eyes no longer current to warrant support as it would be un-competative in class B
On another note I have just tracked down his Mk1 Golf GTI which was sold to Alan Minshaw for the 83 season who in turn sold it in to Spain. The car has been in store since 1989. I have negotiated the purchase and it is on its way back home after nearly 30 years!

[DAVID PATERSON]

Great to see another genuine Group A Touring Car being restored.

[North Essex Motorsport]

Looking at possibly entering CTCRC next year. Classic saloons and historic touring car championship.

I have a few things to change first, to make it compliant with existing MSA regs.

Extinguisher is fine (new zero system), cut offs are also all new and good. Biggest hurdle is the cage, as i want a steel replica of mine. Looks like a trip to safety devices will be required for that. Seat and belts are easy fixes.

My main problem is, will the car be competitive. I am guessing it will be in class d? so will be up against fiestas with similar/same engines and gear boxes. I would assume i will be out dragged at every straight and possibly even lose out on cornering.

I think i will set up the car and do a couple of trackdays at snett and Brands. Then compare times, should be good enough a comparison as i will be using the control tyre aswell (yoko A048R medium)

Any thoughts?

[Racing RSi]

Originally Posted by North Essex Motorsport

Looking at possibly entering CTCRC next year. Classic saloons and historic touring car championship.

I have a few things to change first, to make it compliant with existing MSA regs.

Extinguisher is fine (new zero system), cut offs are also all new and good. Biggest hurdle is the cage, as i want a steel replica of mine. Looks like a trip to safety devices will be required for that. Seat and belts are easy fixes.

My main problem is, will the car be competitive. I am guessing it will be in class d? so will be up against fiestas with similar/same engines and gear boxes. I would assume i will be out dragged at every straight and possibly even lose out on cornering.

I think i will set up the car and do a couple of trackdays at snett and Brands. Then compare times, should be good enough a comparison as i will be using the control tyre aswell (yoko A048R medium)

Any thoughts?

we need to talk. as I might have a go with you.... but its exspensive!!

[chunterer]

Originally Posted by North Essex Motorsport

Looking at possibly entering CTCRC next year. Classic saloons and historic touring car championship.

I have a few things to change first, to make it compliant with existing MSA regs.

Extinguisher is fine (new zero system), cut offs are also all new and good. Biggest hurdle is the cage, as i want a steel replica of mine. Looks like a trip to safety devices will be required for that. Seat and belts are easy fixes.

My main problem is, will the car be competitive. I am guessing it will be in class d? so will be up against fiestas with similar/same engines and gear boxes. I would assume i will be out dragged at every straight and possibly even lose out on cornering.

I think i will set up the car and do a couple of trackdays at snett and Brands. Then compare times, should be good enough a comparison as i will be using the control tyre aswell (yoko A048R medium)

Any thoughts?

Hi ya, I would suggest that the most appropriate series for your car, as long as it is going to be in either original or 'period' Group A spec will be the MRL Touring Car Trophy series? You may have already looked into it?

That series was established specifically to cater for Group 2, G1 and Gr A cars and continues to grow year by year.

With Rovers, Jaguars, BMW and Capris and Patrick Watts excellent Metro Turbo illustrating the authenticity, you would likely face comparable cars like Jim Morris's Mk1 Golf GTi and hopefully one or two other Escorts in class such as Racing RSi's if he can be persuaded to bring one of his out for the limited number of races in the series

For this to continue to grow it needs more people to take the plunge and enter as it will have a knock on effect as people see other similar cars to play with.

The CTCRC is good for more general saloons but these tend to be either Gr1 or GrA replicas and are not really complying specifically to period specs.

The HSCC Supertouring trophy does accept Group A cars in events where a larger field is required to fill the grids, but the little Escort would be left a bit short of breath by the more recent machinery that this series has been designed for.

[North Essex Motorsport]

Originally Posted by chunterer

Hi ya, I would suggest that the most appropriate series for your car, as long as it is going to be in either original or 'period' Group A spec will be the MRL Touring Car Trophy series? You may have already looked into it?

That series was established specifically to cater for Group 2, G1 and Gr A cars and continues to grow year by year.

With Rovers, Jaguars, BMW and Capris and Patrick Watts excellent Metro Turbo illustrating the authenticity, you would likely face comparable cars like Jim Morris's Mk1 Golf GTi and hopefully one or two other Escorts in class such as Racing RSi's if he can be persuaded to bring one of his out for the limited number of races in the series

For this to continue to grow it needs more people to take the plunge and enter as it will have a knock on effect as people see other similar cars to play with.

The CTCRC is good for more general saloons but these tend to be either Gr1 or GrA replicas and are not really complying specifically to period specs.

The HSCC Supertouring trophy does accept Group A cars in events where a larger field is required to fill the grids, but the little Escort would be left a bit short of breath by the more recent machinery that this series has been designed for.

I did look at the legends website, however i couldnt find any of the rules or costs associated with the series. I am not sure finacially its viable for me, as the silverstone classic is £1000 entry before you even start to add in consumables, tyres, fuel, scrutineering issues!

With the CTCRC, costs are more reasonable with £90 series entry, and average £400 race weekend entry. Admittedy i cannot commit to a whole season due to work and personal commitments however would love to get the escort back out on a race day.

Motor racing is by its nature expensive, but i am weighing up my choices. Try and find suitable racing with the escort, or get a small hatch (pug, clio, fiesta) and race that instead as they appear slightly easier on the costs which make it simpler to tell the wife where the money is going

[chunterer]

Bear in mind that the Silverstone Classic is a showpiece event and a lot more pricey I believe than most other UK historic meetings.
I think the entry fee for the MRL 4 race series will be a lot less per meeting and you will be competing with period cars from the same era as yours.

[Racing RSi]

I hare what you say Chunderer ;-). currently having a new workshop built, which will be big enough to work on all of the racers and space for two more projects. but the builders are sooooooo slow, not when they are on site, that's fine but been here 9 weeks now! only the frame is in place.. I am missing the summer at this rate!

[North Essex Motorsport]

Well unfortunately I have been unable to get the car ready for this season.

Had a few teething issues and have been waiting on specialists for component overhaul's!
Hopefully the next three months will see the car being back up and running with a booking at Peter Baldwin for a RR session to ensure the fueling is okay. Then if we have enough time we will set up the car to original geometry (thanks Racing RSi for the set up data)

All being well I should be able to get in a couple of shake down days at a circuit or two before the end of the year.

[AnonymityRules]

Sorry about the resurrection but was David Kennedy ineligible for points at any point in the 1984 season? It's just he should have scored 10 points and Wikipedia only credits him with 9 unless that's just a typing error? I've done the maths.

[JesperOH]

This database has credited Kennedy for 10 points: https://www.driverdb.com/championshi...pionship/1984/

But all others seem to repeat 9 points, and I don't see why he shouldn't have scored 10 points. Remove him from one of his to 6th place class finishes and it will screw the final points for either Vince Woodman or Brian Chatfield, as they finished 7th in those races.

Jesper OH (returning)

[chunterer]

Originally Posted by JesperOH

This database has credited Kennedy for 10 points: https://www.driverdb.com/championshi...pionship/1984/

But all others seem to repeat 9 points, and I don't see why he shouldn't have scored 10 points. Remove him from one of his to 6th place class finishes and it will screw the final points for either Vince Woodman or Brian Chatfield, as they finished 7th in those races.

Jesper OH (returning)

It was defo 9-6-4-3-2-1.
Not sure if/when the point for fastest lap came in though. I know it was defo in use in 1988 but was it part of the system in '84?

[pimmy]

I think the discrepancy comes from the last race of the season at Silverstone. Brodie won on the road but was disqualified. Kennedy finished 6th and was promoted to 5th, so maybe sources giving him 9 points haven't taken this into account?

[chunterer]

Originally Posted by pimmy

I think the discrepancy comes from the last race of the season at Silverstone. Brodie won on the road but was disqualified. Kennedy finished 6th and was promoted to 5th, so maybe sources giving him 9 points haven't taken this into account?

That's a great shout!

[JesperOH]

Since these pages about the group A era of various touring car races and series was started, the FIA has made historic homologation forms available. Here I have chosen what I find to be one of the more controversial cars of the British group A era; the Graham Goode Nissan Bluebird Turbo.

FIA A5197 – Nissan Bluebird Turbo, P910
https://historicdb.fia.com/car/nissa...bo-p-910-17704

Allowed from 1 January 1984, so alright it was homologated before the start of the season. But then go to pages 22 and 23, and it is revealed that the 2 door coupé version that Goode raced was only homologated from 1 July 1984. By then Goode had raced the Bluebird in the first six rounds of the BSCC.
It takes to page 28 before the intercooler are mentioned – homologated by 1 July 1985!

If I read this correct it would mean that it was only 1½ year into it's life that the Goode Bluebird should have been competitive in class B. What was going on?

Jesper

[chunterer]

Thanks for the background info VIVA very interesting to learn a bit more about some of the technical aspects of my favourite period of the series.

[JesperOH]

Thank you VIVA GT, for the clarification on recognition of the use of intercoolers on turbo cars in Britain. I was quite sure that Volvo did their homework when homologating their evolution during 1983, but can't find the word intercooler anywhere in homologation form A5020, as the regular 240 Turbo road car didn't have an intercooler, as far as I know:

https://historicdb.fia.com/car/volvo-240-turbo-2127

Jesper

[JesperOH]

Thank you for clarifying the intercooler issue, VIVA GT. I've heard it before, and by 1984 there were surprisingly few group A turbo cars around. The Volvo 240 Turbo was one, and I was quite sure that Volvo did homologate an intercooler when they did their evo in 1983, but can't find the evidence. But since the 240 (FIA A5020) aren't relevant to this thread I will leave it to rest for now.

The newly established Australian arm of Mitsubishi Ralliart entered a Starion Turbo for the 1984 James Hardie 1000 at Bathurst. Perhaps optimisticly they build the car to the expected 1985 specifications, but the governing body CAMS followed the written FIA group A regulations. The team went to tremendously trouble rebuilding the car to 1983 spec, including deleting the intercooler, before being allowed to race on sunday. This is to the best of my memory of having re-read the '84 Bathurst bible recently.

Jesper

[Gerard C]

Hi Jesper. Homologation form you mention is https://historicdb.fia.com/sites/def...20_group_a.pdf did not find any evidence of intercooler as you say. Water injection was homologated through extension 09/01 ET valid from 1 Sept '83 together with a new turbo (water injection specific tank capacity 30 litres). What is puzzling is that several extensions have been canceled over the years. May be the intercooler was part of country specific market (like the 530 Bimmer, ius version)? Much later, some japanese homologations showed that the lesson was learned, the intercooler being water sprayed (page 8, extension02/01 WR) https://historicdb.fia.com/sites/def...52_group_a.pdf

[Vassago]

Hello,


I have a question about Rob Hall active in the series in 1983-84. Is it the same Rob Hall from current historic races? That would make him 18-19 years old if he raced in BSCC in the 80s?