2011 spec chassis and tires - official?!

[Bob Riebe]

Originally Posted by drdisque

Some of you said the series needs more "speed differential". All you get from that is 3 cars on the lead lap at the end of the day and crazy dangerous closing rates.

Not one damned thing wrong with that. I worked great for decades.

[mountainstar]

Originally Posted by drdisque

The "snoozefest" at indy was solely due to the high track temps and low grip that caused.

Yes, I think that having a spec chassis has caused a drop in spending by even the big teams.

Also, the new car will not be the "same old tripe". It will be innovative and new, just everyone will probably have largely the same one.

Some of you said the series needs more "speed differential". All you get from that is 3 cars on the lead lap at the end of the day and crazy dangerous closing rates.

High track temps! It was 72 degrees outside with a 94 degree track temp at race start! That's cool man! That aint hot. 140 degrees is friggen hot.

Penske and Ganassi and AGR are spending as much as they always have. Do you know Ganassi leases a whole highway tunnel from an abandoned stretch of Pennsylvania Turnpike and turned it into a high tech wind tunnel? Penske took over a whole friggen old Panasonic factory as his new facililty. Etc.

You can legislate it to death but as long as the budget is there, then they'll spend it.

[cptkablamo]

I don't really think Indycars can afford to go down a spec route for fear of being lost in the plethora of spec racing. And I do think that to say you want to go down a spec route is lazy, not in the sense of doing nothing, leaving work early but in the way of we could have something better but it could be too hard to make it work.

Plus they will have to work out something that works for themselves...CART is dead, IRL is dead, Champ Car is dead - all failed because they couldn't get agreement or they were trying to hold on to somthing that once worked but didn't anymore.

Indycar must live on as something that is designed for them and their fans, no matter how hard it may be

[climb]

Originally Posted by mountainstar

One hand you have cost cuts and cost control. In the other hand, you kill your revenue by making it a snoozefest.

At the risk of being boring, I repeat that IMHO a spec series is not a snooze fest outside a relatively small group of hardcore diehard OW fans (among which, I notice with pleasure you've bounced back )

INDY this year was soldout, despite being the first spec one ever.

Originally Posted by mountainstar

If you want growth you need to expand rather than contract and be a bit more dynamic and forward thinking. Not have the same old tripe going around.

A fair point indeed, but a series need a different general economic situation to face it. Let's not forget that motorsport is nothing but a advertisement channel for companies, in particular those from the automotive industry: of course a company need to promote themselves to expand, but we all know that when the times get rough, the first expenses to be cut are these ones.

Therefore, before becoming ean expensive series like Cart were in the 90's, a radical turnaround in the general situation is required. In the medium term there are no evidences of it yet.

Originally Posted by mountainstar

Do you think a spec class stops Penske and others from spending like crazy?

The problem of cost cutting has never be a matter for richer teams, of course! But to have a successful series you need to complet the grid with a number of not-so-rich ones, which can come along only if they can afford it.

Originally Posted by mountainstar

Yes a spec car can fill a purpose and plug a hole in the dike for a while. But it's not what you want to move forward.

I think that if the driver/tracks package is interesting, you can be sucessful as well, outside F1.

[Knowlesy]

To continue to be a spec series would be dangerous indeed.

It could be offset by making the cars fast though, although the safety brigade will put a halt to that and we'll be stuck with yet more painfully slow cars and snail-like average lap speeds.

[Amar7605]

Don't these cars have Hanford devices? Or is that just better for speedway racing only?

What about adding restrictor plates? Basically add something so that drafting can happen. More dangerous and you run the risk of multi-car collisions, but at least there's passing and opportunities for the cars in the back of the field to move up.

[johntt]

Originally Posted by Amar7605

Don't these cars have Hanford devices? Or is that just better for speedway racing only?

What about adding restrictor plates? Basically add something so that drafting can happen. More dangerous and you run the risk of multi-car collisions, but at least there's passing and opportunities for the cars in the back of the field to move up.

There aren't any Handford devices on the current cars.

Restrictor plates with open-wheelers? Thats a deathwish.

They way you get overtaking with Indycars on ovals through the balance of downforce and power. Mario Andretti was tlking about this receently.

The old style Indycars (and later Champ Cars) had more power than downforce, this meant that you would go down the straights at ~240mph, but have to back off to ~190mph in the corners. This meant there was a significant degree of skill to driving on ovals and the need to get out of the throttle meant there was opportunity to overtake.

The current Indycars have more downforce than power so all they do is go around the track flat out at 220mph and noone can overtake.

[climb]

Originally Posted by johntt

...
The current Indycars have more downforce than power so all they do is go around the track flat out at 220mph and noone can overtake.

that's hardly fair indeed.Oval races in IRL have always been filled with overtakings

[bil588]

Bobby Rahal's vision of the IndyCar of 2011

5-29-08

http://www.gordonkirby.com/categorie..._is_no130.html

[mountainstar]

Originally Posted by bil588

Bobby Rahal's vision of the IndyCar of 2011

5-29-08

http://www.gordonkirby.com/categorie..._is_no130.html

I see merit in a lot of that and I hope his ideas or ideas similar get a look at rather than them rubber stamping another boring spec chassis spec engine program with old technology. I also note the mention of ethanol. I love ethanol as a future fuel, but think corn based ethanol is beyond stupid and I'm glad he mentions a move away from that.

[Dutton]

I dislike entirely the idea of making it a totally spec series. I can live sameness as a natural by-product of one option being far better than the others, but mandated spec for a "premier" series irritates me. It is not the kind of thing that stops me watching, but it does decrease my interest.

I would much prefer there to be more power than downforce, with the largest part of this achieved via a significant power increase. Again, for me, anything claiming to be "premier" series needs to have serious power (the IRL at present, IMO, falls rather short of this).

Food-based fuel is a terrible thing with potentially catastrophic consequences for humanity. The effects of this approach are beginning to felt, and, in the interests of the overall good of man, further development of this madness should be opposed and resisted at all costs.

I guess what I mean is, for me, there needs to be more to it than simply what happens on-track each race.

[climb]

I still repeat, a spec series is the dullest but cheapest solution.

when there's a lot of money for everybody, let's bring on a multi-engine, multi-chassis series; for now, let's be realistic

[Teretonga]

They do not have to mandate a chassis bit issue a series of rules and allow manufacturers to tender their designs (homologate) them. They can still allow more than one design but you can bet that the cars will be:
a. more expensive
b. the teams will go for the most experienced manufacturer
c. after 6 months or a year most teams will be running the fastest design, the rest will be also rans and will eventually and rapidly disappear.

That is simply because of the economics of modern racing. Don't forget that the teams can modify parts and produce little variations for their Dallaras now. A Penske Dallara is a little different from the Ganassi one and an AGR one has other differences again.

[climb]

good points all Tere

[bil588]

Robin Miller: BMW, Ford, and GM to meet with IndyCar Series soon

(from the Speed Report on Speed TV - June 22, 2008)

Robin said that Honda, BMW, Ford, and GM (might have missed one from the tv report) will meet with officials about the 2011 engine regs and what not on Tuesday June 24, 2008.

Fans on spec cars:

http://auto-racing.speedtv.com/artic...r-june-18//P3/

[johntt]

http://www.gordonkirby.com/categorie..._is_no134.html

I like the looks of that concept , the smooth lines mark it out as different from other single seaters. His ideas include a spec chassis until the series is commercially strong enough, which makes sense, and a 1.5l V6 twin-turbo engine.

[paul-collins]

It should be pointed out that Mazda does not badge, and that it's been stated elsewhere that Robin Miller's reporting that Ford is at the table is erronous - that it's Mazda instead.

That leads me to believe that motors will not be spec.

[bil588]

Originally Posted by Dutton

I dislike entirely the idea of making it a totally spec series. I can live sameness as a natural by-product of one option being far better than the others, but mandated spec for a "premier" series irritates me. It is not the kind of thing that stops me watching, but it does decrease my interest.

I would much prefer there to be more power than downforce, with the largest part of this achieved via a significant power increase. Again, for me, anything claiming to be "premier" series needs to have serious power (the IRL at present, IMO, falls rather short of this).

Food-based fuel is a terrible thing with potentially catastrophic consequences for humanity. The effects of this approach are beginning to felt, and, in the interests of the overall good of man, further development of this madness should be opposed and resisted at all costs.

I guess what I mean is, for me, there needs to be more to it than simply what happens on-track each race.

The IndyCar Series could move to cellulosic ethanol.

Indy to Hold Engine Manufacturers’ Summit

By Robin Miller

6-23-2008

Representatives from Audi, BMW, Mazda, General Motors and Honda are expected to attend along with Ilmor and Cosworth.

http://auto-racing.speedtv.com/artic...turers-summit/

http://www.ilmor.co.uk/

Could the "Cosworth XH LMP1 V8" be used in 2011? Race Tech Magazine says the total weight is 160 kg.

http://www.cosworth.com/content.php?...5&contentid=73

[Tim Northcutt]

The Indy Star had a brief item this morning that stated that seven auto manufacturers plus six other engine building companies met with IRL officials yesterday to discuss possible engine configurations for 2011.

I think they should use ACO/ALMS LMP2 engine guidelines and tweak the tuning to get them at about 700 hp. That formula works and manufacturers are already involved in it.

[Amar7605]

http://sports.yahoo.com/irl/news;_yl...v=ap&type=lgns

Here's a Yahoo! article. Apparently, turbos are not off the table, and the possibility of 3 to 5 engine manufactuers (anything over 3 is too many, IMHO).

[indycool]

Heard the manufacturers meeting went well at Indy and they're in a "tell me more" position.

If they didn't go for 2011, there wouldn't be enough time to do it right and the CC teams that came over would be buying new stuff in 3 out of 4 years and falling economically by the wayside.

The idea of the cars and tires being "spec" and that being just an awful thing is a lot of malarkey. Ask 3/4ths of the people in the stands what "spec cars" even means and they're much more interested if Dixon is leading and Danica is second and their guy is third. NASCAR's "common template" is "spec" but no big hue and cry with it there. "Spec" is a term used in a derogatory manner by some high brows in the road racing community and, IMO, will continue to be used in a condescending fashion to oval-track fans along with everything else they can throw at the series.

[Bob Riebe]

Originally Posted by indycool

Heard the manufacturers meeting went well at Indy and they're in a "tell me more" position.

If they didn't go for 2011, there wouldn't be enough time to do it right and the CC teams that came over would be buying new stuff in 3 out of 4 years and falling economically by the wayside.

The idea of the cars and tires being "spec" and that being just an awful thing is a lot of malarkey. Ask 3/4ths of the people in the stands what "spec cars" even means and they're much more interested if Dixon is leading and Danica is second and their guy is third. NASCAR's "common template" is "spec" but no big hue and cry with it there. "Spec" is a term used in a derogatory manner by some high brows in the road racing community and, IMO, will continue to be used in a condescending fashion to oval-track fans along with everything else they can throw at the series.

Spec IS deroggatory because it means all use the same dull, unrefined crap.
Spec. racing belongs in SCCA amateur circles where it is fine for good old boys out for a weekend get together.

Fan are not as damn stupid as you say they are, at least not he ones who keep racing going when all the bar-fly types flit on to some other aisnine deal-of-day entertainment slough.

Read more of the NASCAR sites and yo will see people are sick of the COT and the same old, same old pile of crap all year.
Without Toyota to cause some interest by simply being annoyingly there, it would be a snooze fest.

Drag racing is as far from spec. as any series is today and is growing by leaps and bounds. The car related companies that used to pump millions into open wheel oval racing now spend it there. The variety of products on the banners by the pits, are the same ones many spectators have in there own cars; NOT the SAME CRAP, SAME PILE no matter where you look.
Chevy, Ford, Dodge all have heavy duty parts books filled with engines used by these racers and fans.
If open wheel racing does not give a damn about the millions of fans that attend drag races every week fine, but Detroit pumps out parts and takes in millions every year to keep them happy.

NOW tell how wonderful this spec. feces is.

[Amar7605]

I agree with Bob. Racing should not be so controlled so as to take away the participants' ability to come up with the best car possible themselves. NASCAR, for example, has lost it's luster with the COT. In a way, I believe that part of the demise of Champ Car was the single spec cars.

When I saw CART race in Fontana in 2002, I saw how competive it was to see Ford, Honda, Toyota, Reynard, and Lola race one another. During the race there were times when one combination was better than the others. As a result the race was unpredictable because I didn't know who would win. It was that great because no one team was really dominant.

Then in 2004 my sister and I went to Las Vegas. What a snooze fest. You already knew from the beginning that Bourdais was going to win because he was in the lead from beginning to end and generally the race order didn't change. Pit strategy didn't help. This was when there were only Ford Cosworth engines and Lola chassis. A spec series race that was a snoozefest.

In theory spec series should be good racing because suppossedly everyone is equal and therefore should have no advantage. In practice, spec racing is not exciting to watch.

[indycool]

In NASCAR, you used to have "stock" cars from the various manufacturers. Now, it's just engines, and yes, the COT takes one element away from it, but when they're racing, it's still Jeff Gordon and Chevy vs. Tony Stewart and Toyota, etc.

There have been many times throughout the history of this sport that a car or engine has become so dominant that everybody wanted it and sometimes got it. Like the Offy. The Cosworth of the late '70s and early '80s. Dan Gurney's Eagles of the early '70s. And that's WITH more open rules.

The sport, with almost 100 years of history, goes through its cycles. I think those who believe the IRL oughta go off willy-nilly without stabilizing the sport first are going to be disappointed.

[JohnSSC]

Been lurking around this thread for a bit - not sure I have anything really worthwhile to add, but here goes:

I am still in the "walk before you run" mode. Funny how horrible spec racing is to some and yet the spec racing often results from a natural selection process. As has been noted, teams that want to go fast right now will rush lemming-like to whatever chassis they perceive as "the fastest." You could have 40 different chassis' out there, but in no time every team that matters will be in one. Heck, even Penske gave up building their own chassis and this is a group that built a reasonably competitive F1 car. Not like they didn't have the know-how to do it.

Now Bob Reibe (and Bob, I love your posts because you never mince words!) makes a point about the excitement of the old days. I liked it too and I think Mario Andretti is on to something. Whatever chassis is used, the engine HAS to make more power than downforce. This is where I think Tim's point about ALMS could be huge IF the powers-that-be are able to work out some sensible rules that will (hopefully) keep one manufacturer from dominating.

I really like the idea of allowing engine size/type determine things like weight/downforce on the car. The variety should be there to allow teams to use say a small, high-revving turbo in a lighter chassis with more aero against a big honkin' V-8 in a heavier chassis with less aero (or the other way around on the aero). You get the idea.

I am with mountainstar on the corn ethanol thing too. There are enough starving people in the world without using corn (food) to feed a Flex-Fuel Escalade that gets at best 14 mpg going downhill with a tailwind.